Author Topic: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12  (Read 7590 times)

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Offline Adam

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Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« on: July 23, 2012, 01:26:17 PM »
Info:
http://www.shilohidpa.com/Content/CarryMatch.aspx

Sign ups:
http://www.shilohidpa.com/MatchRegister/42

**

In lieu of the typical 5th Thursday BUG match, we will be having a concealed carry-themed match. The point of this match is to use and practice with the gun, holster, clothes and carry condition you would normally carry your gun in public. We are not prescribing what you have to look like or what type of gun to shoot, but it needs to be carried and concealed in a manner you would normally carry and conceal the gun. If you are a daily vest wearer, then by all means continue to wear your concealment vest. But if you are like most people and tend to throw a T-shirt over the gun, that is the way you should show up to this match.

IDPA rules still apply, so no cross-draw, small of back, ankle, shoulder or purse carry. All of those can be safe, however they also represent safety issues that we cannot allow. Other carry methods such as appendix IWB carry will be approved on a case-by-case basis in advance (if you want to shoot something that's not strong side hip, email the webmaster in advance for permission and we can try to work out a way to do it safely).

We will be performing a standard IDPA "scarecrow" equipment check at the match - we should be able to see none of your gun or gear when you have your arms raised parallel to the ground. Anyone failing equipment check can opt to take a procedural on every stage.

We will be operating on the honor system also - please come with your 'normal' carry method (that fits into the rules above). Remember that it's summer, so if you're dressed in a manner unsuitable for 100+ degree weather, you're not using a "normal" carry method. If you do not want to, you can opt for a procedural on every stage.

Guns of caliber .25ACP and up are allowed. We will be separating shooters into appropriate divisions (all normal divisions plus BUG). BUG guns may use lasers, however none of the other divisions may. A gun that qualifies for both BUG and a normal division must be declared as one or the other. The stage rules for BUG guns will be no different than the rest of the divisions (you will shoot more than 5 rounds in a stage and you will reload on the clock).

**

I'll post more info (stages, etc) as we get closer to the date of the match. They'll be mostly legal IDPA stages with some "not quite according to the rulebook" bits.

Offline alexrex20

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 01:59:02 PM »
Interesting... I will try to make it

Offline Domineaux

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 06:55:32 PM »
Me too
"One cannot restrict the defiant by constraining the compliant."

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Offline Jeb_66

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Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 09:24:37 PM »
Brought this up in another thread, but we didn't want to hijack someone's intro. Lol.

I thought IDPA was ALWAYS supposed to be "what you normally carry". ????????  Or is that not the case?

Jeb
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Offline Domineaux

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 09:28:55 PM »
Brought this up in another thread, but we didn't want to hijack someone's intro. Lol.

I thought IDPA was ALWAYS supposed to be "what you normally carry". ????????  Or is that not the case?

That's the idea behind it but most folks get into competing.
I use my carry gun and started using my Lone Rider Arm-A-Dillo instead of a Fobus paddle so that it would be more applicable for real world.
"One cannot restrict the defiant by constraining the compliant."

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Offline Jeb_66

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Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2012, 09:40:03 PM »
I'd think more people would do exactly that Dom.

Jeb
"Keep your booger hook off the bang switch!"
Have you ever looked around at the group of people you are in and thought, "If the Zombie Apocalypse happens right now, this is what I have to work with."?

"...........Not that I'm into hugging dudes..........." 

Offline alexrex20

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2012, 11:02:40 PM »
They don't. Nobody even concealed their gun at the match I went to.

I ordered a Crossbreed holster (sorry Jack, I will get one from you also!) and am anxious to see how well they fit. After all, they get rave reviews. I just wonder if that much leather against my skin is going to get hot and sweaty.

Offline Adam

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2012, 11:19:09 PM »
I'd think more people would do exactly that Dom.

More often than not, people use full size guns and not guns that are more easy to conceal. Many will use full size versions of compacts they carry, and some will just use whatever will fit within the rules (for example, me in the ESP division).

IDPA is a game, that happens to be based loosely around "defensive principles", with a set of rules. The IDPA rulebook defines how powerful ammo must be to be considered "full powered service ammunition" (and it's not), defines concealment as anything that hides your belt equipment (so unrealistic fishing vests are in), and has a set of rules that will get people shot in real life (if you're "slicing the pie" around anything lighter than thick steel, you're going to get shot through the item you're hiding behind).

That said, its other principle is to use more realistic guns than what USPSA was using at the time of the creation of IDPA. There didn't used to be a USPSA division for production, 1911 single stacks or ammo-limited guns. It was race gun or heavily modified limited gun. So instead of having to sink $3k+ on a gun to be competitive, IDPA set out to use mostly stock guns.

So ultimately it's a game with a set of rules. The gun most used at the IDPA world competition in 2011 was a Glock 34. Certainly not anyone's ideal concealed gun. The G17 was next followed by full size M&P's. The 17 and M&Ps are concealable, but most people wouldn't want to (read: there are hundreds of thousands of CHL holders across the country who would balk at someone saying they should carry a big ol' G17).

All that said - it's still a great way to become comfortable with drawing from a holster, reloads, shot timing, and general gun handling. You do a lot of that and it'll become second nature.

They don't. Nobody even concealed their gun at the match I went to.

Most in this area don't wear concealment in the summer because of the heat. Once it cools off, most clubs require it for all but new-ish shooters.

I ordered a Crossbreed holster (sorry Jack, I will get one from you also!) and am anxious to see how well they fit. After all, they get rave reviews. I just wonder if that much leather against my skin is going to get hot and sweaty.

I'm mad at my Crossbreed. Because the muzzle sticks out the bottom, my gun always pops up when I sit down at a booth for dinner. I always have to click it back into place. The design of the non-slide version of the MTAC is much better (the muzzle is covered).

Offline alexrex20

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2012, 11:22:43 PM »
Hmmm, I was planning on alternating among a 3in, 4.25in, and 5in 1911 in my Supertuck. Maybe I'll have to stick with the 3in, because the muzzle doesn't extend much past the Kydex.

I plan on ordering an MTAC as well. I just recently found out they're based in Spring; I love keeping my money in Texas, and especially local.

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2012, 11:23:50 PM »
I think I met you at the IDPA match at Shiloh on June 28... I was the bald Asian, friends with Vox.

Offline Adam

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2012, 07:18:51 AM »
I'm not usually there on 4th Thursdays - so it probably wasn't me :)

Offline Jeb_66

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Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2012, 08:18:08 AM »
I carry a fullsize concealed everyday. And that's what I would shoot. I understand what you mean about just getting the mechanics down, regardless of what weapon you choose. But it just seems to make more sense that you'd train with what you carry.

I guess the "carry compact versions of what they compete with" would help with training and carry be close.

Jeb
"Keep your booger hook off the bang switch!"
Have you ever looked around at the group of people you are in and thought, "If the Zombie Apocalypse happens right now, this is what I have to work with."?

"...........Not that I'm into hugging dudes..........." 

Offline Jeb_66

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Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2012, 08:19:27 AM »
Then again, so many people "compete" to win, no matter what. Lol. So I guess I can see that.

Jeb
"Keep your booger hook off the bang switch!"
Have you ever looked around at the group of people you are in and thought, "If the Zombie Apocalypse happens right now, this is what I have to work with."?

"...........Not that I'm into hugging dudes..........." 

Offline alexrex20

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2012, 09:14:20 AM »
Jeb, you compete to lose?

I heard people should be rewarded for subpar performance.

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Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2012, 09:30:54 AM »
Lmao.  I guess you could say that, although that's not EXACTLY what I meant. I was  meaning if I was in the top 10 of that competition with my EVERYDAY carry gun, but I knew I could be first place if I used some long slide reflex sight having "race" gun, I'd be happy to stay where I was, since I'd NEVER conceal carry something stupid like that.  And if I wasn't even in the top 50, (since I've never done it I assume I wouldn't even be in the top 1000,) there is NO WAY I'd shoot something I don't carry just to place 46 instead of 59 or something dumb like that. Unless there's money at stake, I'd shoot EXACTLY what I carry, and in my normal carry/conceal clothes.

In a game that's meant to sharpen and refine the skills you may have to one day USE to save your life, I think I would play that game with WHAT I WOULD ACTUALLY BE USING TO ONE DAY SAVE MY LIFE. You know what I mean? 

But you're right, these days you get trophies for sucking at sports, and paid for sucking at life. Sooooo, maybe we SHOULD re-evaluate our "competition" level. Lol.




Now I don't mean anything bad towards those who do shoot race guns or whatever. Some people play it for a game and others as life saving skills to work on. As a game, do whatever you can to win!!!!  As skills to work on that my life may depend on, play how you would in everyday life. Just depends on WHY you play I guess. I had just assumed that the idea was to always use what you would actually have. 

Jeb
"Keep your booger hook off the bang switch!"
Have you ever looked around at the group of people you are in and thought, "If the Zombie Apocalypse happens right now, this is what I have to work with."?

"...........Not that I'm into hugging dudes..........." 

Offline alexrex20

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2012, 09:32:51 AM »
You're thinking of IPSC or USPSA that have all the crazy race guns.

Offline Adam

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2012, 09:47:54 AM »
But it just seems to make more sense that you'd train with what you carry.

You're right, except IDPA is not training. It's a game. If you want training, like I said above, IDPA is not what you want.

Some snippets from page 1 of the rulebook:

Quote
"The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters."

Quote
"The founders developed the sport so that practical gear and practical guns may be used competitively. An interested person can spend a minimal amount on equipment and still be competitive."

And page 4, "Purpose"

Quote
"IDPA is a shooting sport that uses practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios.

IDPA shooting events require use of practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense. No “competition only” equipment is permitted in IDPA matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not equipment or gamesmanship."

It's not until page 5 that you begin to see a single principle based on "training":

Quote
"IV. Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire that simulate potentially lifethreatening encounters, or that tests skills required to survive life-threatening encounters."

Still not training - just providing scenarios that test skills (which is primarily shooting and reloading, as I said before the "hiding" aspect from IDPA just seems to convince people they can hide behind anything without getting shot). The founders saw shortcomings in USPSA/IPSC which was turning into an equipment race with unrealistic guns and wanted to tone it down a bit.

Offline Jeb_66

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Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2012, 09:51:11 AM »
I knew they had crazy stuff like that, but I've never even been to a IDPA match. So my opinion is already borderline worthless. Lol. I just assumed IDPA did too because of the emphasis on this PARTICULAR match to bring what you carry, meaning that isn't the norm. If that isn't the norm then I figured the "norm" would be stuff you DON'T normally carry is what's being used at these competitions. Meaning stupid stuff like "race" guns.

So educate me. (Honestly not being sarcastic, I simply don't know about IDPA since it isn't available in the black hole of Waco. lol). What NORMALLY does one use to shoot IDPA, and why wouldn't that be the same thing they normally CARRY? 

Jeb
"Keep your booger hook off the bang switch!"
Have you ever looked around at the group of people you are in and thought, "If the Zombie Apocalypse happens right now, this is what I have to work with."?

"...........Not that I'm into hugging dudes..........." 

Offline Jeb_66

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Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2012, 09:57:47 AM »
Asills -

    I understand it's a sport, just like anything else. But a LOT of people talk about doing it to work on skills they may one day need, since you can't really work on them anywhere else. I'd consider that a type of training. That's all I meant. I know it didn't set out to be a training course. Lol.

I wasn't confused at all about what it was until the post about a SPECIAL match to shoot what you carry. ??????  Which made me wonder WTF do you normally shoot?  And how "practical" is it to shoot something you'd never carry. Lol. Know what I mean? 

I watched the video someone posted a while back with the two guys explaining the differences between the two, and I THOUGHT I understood. Apparently not. Lol

Jeb
"Keep your booger hook off the bang switch!"
Have you ever looked around at the group of people you are in and thought, "If the Zombie Apocalypse happens right now, this is what I have to work with."?

"...........Not that I'm into hugging dudes..........." 

Offline Adam

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Re: Shiloh IDPA - Concealed Carry Match 8/30/12
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2012, 10:10:22 AM »
I knew they had crazy stuff like that, but I've never even been to a IDPA match. So my opinion is already borderline worthless. Lol. I just assumed IDPA did too because of the emphasis on this PARTICULAR match to bring what you carry, meaning that isn't the norm. If that isn't the norm then I figured the "norm" would be stuff you DON'T normally carry is what's being used at these competitions. Meaning stupid stuff like "race" guns.

So educate me. (Honestly not being sarcastic, I simply don't know about IDPA since it isn't available in the black hole of Waco. lol). What NORMALLY does one use to shoot IDPA, and why wouldn't that be the same thing they normally CARRY?

An example: the CHL market is HUGE. Stupid huge. Ever wonder why the rise of the pocket-sized tiny 9mms and 380s? It's because the CHL market is growing massively and that's what a huge majority of CHL'ers think they need. Lots of people start shooting IDPA with a smaller gun and most I've seen in my 2 years watching new people show up to matches end up buying a full size to compete with. It's easier to hit a 35 yard shot with a 6 inch sight radius than a 4 inch. You do see 8 inch steel plates at 20 yards and most who show up with a small gun have a hard time hitting those at all, let alone with a small gun.

The equipment required for IDPA is to use concealable holsters suitable for all day carry, so race holsters are out. The guns must fit a certain profile - the IDPA box - and the box lid must close so the guns can't be too outlandishly large. No optics are allowed as they're not standard for carry guns. There are weight limits in place to exclude guns that are too heavy to wear daily (for instance, Bianchi cup guns can be 4 pounds or more unloaded). And there are limits on reloading, as in a gunfight people will tend to shoot until the gun is empty and won't drop ammo on the ground (you may need it later). Finally, stages must be scenario-based, and those scenarios must be related to real-life encounters - you won't see any "sea monster" stages in IDPA like you can in USPSA.

So ultimately, ignoring the paragraph above, you get the same "training" out of IDPA as you do USPSA: gun handling and reloads.