Author Topic: Hitler: Madman or Genius?  (Read 268 times)

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Offline Axxe55

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Hitler: Madman or Genius?
« on: February 14, 2020, 08:54:31 PM »
I like studying the history of WW2, and watching documentories on the subject. One topic that from what I have gathered, concerns Hitler. Some think that he was a genius when it came to strategy, and some believe he was psychopathic moron, that just had some dumb luck in the beginning of his attempted takeover of Europe.

Personally, I think he was an idiot that just got lucky, and in the beginning, didn't meet any real opposition.

Curious to hear others thoughts or opinions.
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Offline DCD327

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Re: Hitler: Madman or Genius?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2020, 10:54:38 PM »
The British SOE had plans to assassinate Hitler.  Due to intelligence failures early on, they couldn't get anyone close.
In 1943, they, brit general  ALEXANDER ,  figured out that Germany had all the British naval codes cracked. Brit Army also used the code because they thought it was safe.
Rommel was a pretty darn good genneral,, but he knew what British commanders orders were, most of the time before they did. Their secret weapons was Italian code breakers , who were really good.

About mid 1942, Britain general Alexander demanded they change the naval code. He had been complaining and suspected the British code was cracked for over a year. Just about the time they put Mongomery in charge in North Africa, they changed the code.

But it was a double whammy.
Polish Jews, working on enigma since 1938,, had taken all their code teams to Britain in 1939 when Hitler invaded Poland. . The polish jew code breakers already captured and  cracked the German enigma AND German  naval codes in mid 1942 to early 1943. They just didnt have a fast way to decipher.

(THE MOST immediate effect was Britain won the battle of the Atlantic with the uboats. They started sinking German subs faster than they could replace them)

Brit general Montgomerys instant success in north Africa wasnt because he was brilliant. It was due to both factors. The germans couldn't read British codes anymore. And the British were reading German mail. The shoe was on the other foot.

To this day the British take credit for cracking enigma. ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.  Something that's always irritated me. And I'm Scottish. Lol. Give credit where it's due.   It was polish Jews who smuggled it out of Poland in 1939. Until they brought their work and  enigma machines to England,, the Brits didnt know much at all.
The British can only take credit for a computer that decrypted it FASTER.

The winter of 1943,  a British scientist made a computer, "colossus",  that could decrypt German enigma in real time, thus making its intelligence priceless. It was the best kept secret of the war. Allied commanders were never allowed to use, or given enigma decripts unless the code breakers could devise a legit story that the intelligence came from somewhere else.
They ended up creating a whole fake spy ring In Switzerland and Spain to help with this.

The germans chased long and hard to catch these GHOST spys for 5 years, that actually never existed. Lol

The Brits even flew intelligence from Bletchley Park, secretly to Gibraltor, then gave it back out to commanders from there, they put on quite the elaborate hoax.
This was never even admitted to by England until the late 1970s.
They even used the imaginary spy ring  on the Russians. They told the russains the exact time and date of the German invasion, and said their Switzerland spy ring got it. The russains had spys there looking, so did the germans, because of the Brits. Lmao.

Nobody ever figured it out. And you cant catch a ghost. Everyone was looking for a spy ring in Switzerland and Spain. About the time the germans or russains would stop looking, they would drop another clue in Spain or Switzerland.. ALWAYS keeping them on the hook looking. .
British intelligence played that beautifully,, for years. Even during the cold war.

 In 1944, the British SOE  had 2 snipers in Bergtesgarden. They could have killed Hitler. But Allied command decided the war would end alot sooner with Hitler in charge. They instructed the snipers to get out of there.
Early I  the war in 1939, Hitler didnt know sheet, and allowed the generals to run things. He just said WHO and WHERE TO ATTACK.
Later in the war, after the fall of western Europe, Hitler became an arm chair general , and due to drugs, thought he knew it all. He was his own biggest fan.
Then Hitler constantly  interfered with his generals,  so much, most catastrophic losses in Russia were a direct result of Hitler's orders over riding his generals. Stalingrad only made him interfere worse. He blamed his generals for everything that went wrong, and took credit for anything that went right. Hitler said HE was the greatest general since Alexander.

The man was a Ww1 corporal. He ran messages, and was gassed. A reason they claimed he wouldnt use gas in ww2 on the battlefield.  A failed artist. The art school in Viena wouldnt even accept him. They said his work was crap. So he then fancied himself an architect, again, he failed at that also. It is also said his real dad was a part jewish, and a drunk who beat him.

Before he came to power, most of his friends were homosexuals. Several of which Hitler ordered executed after he came to power. Earnest rhome comes to mind as 1. He was a close Hitler friend, and the leader of the early brown shirts.
 His blatant homosexual behavior was brought to Hitler's attention, so Hitler sent soldiers to arrest rhome. He was found in bed with a couple boys. When they reported this to Hitler, he ordered them all shot.
 Most of his own generals despised him. But saying so would get you a firing squad.

Rommel was the king of tank warfare. He and Guderian invented blitzkreig,, a type of warfare later used by Patton & other Americans,  back against Germany. Rommel was a master armor tactician., but not so with logistics.  The American tank corps still study Rommels tactics, and use them.
Neither rommel or guderian were masters of logistics or defense. Or running multiple armies. . Rommels west wall defenses failed miserably. but nobody understood the use of MOBILE armored Warfare like they did. Rommel also understood COMBINED. Arms.  Using tanks, infantry, and fighter bombers,,all TOGETHER.  EArly in WW2, Only US General Courtney Hodges  understood the Combined arms tactics of Rommel. . Patton didnt "get it "until late 1944, evidence is he didnt use it until then. . USA Armies still study it.

VonRundstadt , as far as a general,, was a prussian military man, and very intelligent. He was a logistics and tactical general. He could do it all, on a massive scale. Imo,  He was probably  their smartest generals.
Hitler fires him 4 times. Then when things got REALLY BAD, Hitler would hire him Back to try and deal with the mess.
Had hitler listened to VonRundstadt,, WW2 would no doubt have been much more difficult to win. 
VonRundstadt called hitler "that bohemian corporal", wouldnt say hail Hitler as a habit,  and believed in fighting like an honorable soldier,  and like wise treating prisoners like a pow should be treated.

The last major battle of WW2, the battle of the bulge,, Vonrundstadt  had been fired for the last time in September 44  right before market garden. He was called back for watch on the rhine,,,  the battle of the bulge dec 44. . 
He was said to rarely speak during the meetings . Hitler had some of his favorite SS generals commanding divisions and corps, , and vonrundstadt  said he would not command them. They had came from Russia and were used to killing everyone and every thing. It was reported, for the battle of the bulge, Vonrundstadt said sarcastically,  "the only order coming out of this headquarters is me changing the guard out by the gate. "
He didnt want to do this battle, and said it would be a catastrophe.  It was.

This was Hitler's baby, and he commanded it. Vonrundstadt sat in his head quarters and did nothing. The SS DID THE malmady massacre and killed 125 USA POWs, and a couple hundred Belgians civilians also.

After the war, during Nuremberg trials. Vonrundstadt was one of the only German generals who was considered to be a professional officer and soldier.. I think he did 6 months in jail, and was free. But the British advised he stay in the British sector since the russains wanted to trie him. The Brits claimed they had him in custody for 4 years, but he was mostly in german hospitals , or health santorum's, as his heart and arthritis were bad,

I tend to agree with vonrundsadt and Eisenhower,,,,,,,,, Hitler was a moron.
 
We also now know he was a meth junkie, as were a lot of his SS soldiers. They were strung out on pervatin,   which is meth.
At the end of WW2, due to germans wanting to surrender to Americans,,, they had German Pow camps stung out along the Elbe river.

Some of these camps were solely for junkies. Most died In  the camps due to them murdering each other.
Eisenhower said they couldn't do anything with them. They acted like animals.
The USSR did the same thing.

But that is a little know fact of WW2. There are some video available of these camps,, but I believe you tube took them down. They're pretty nasty. The Victor's really didnt publicize it.
I also seen where the Russian KGB had Hitler skull in a facility. Stalin demanded his head,, and they provided it. Dental records matched.
But when the iron curtain went up,, the ruskies kept it quiet. They used hunting hitler as an excuse for alot of future crimes they committed.

So hitler was not living in Brazil like the TV show said. Lol.

Gemany had some extremely intelligent and brilliant tacticians. Professional soldiers.
Fortunately,  after the Barbarossa invasion of the Soviet union in 1941, hitler rarely listen to them.
Had he done so,, I think WW2 would have been a far different story.
Hitler was his own, and Germany's  worst enemy.
Hitler was certainly a madman.

But I'd say he had some generals that were genius.
 Von Rundstadt ,Von Mantueffel, and Rommel. All highly respected , even studied and revered,  by their enemies.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 02:57:23 AM by DCD327 »
Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often, and for the same reason.

There are two kinds of people in the world my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. YOU DIG.  " Blondie".

Well, any man that wouldnt cheat at cards for a poke, dont want one bad enough. " Gus".

Offline TXAZ

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Re: Hitler: Madman or Genius?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2020, 11:11:52 PM »
I like studying the history of WW2, and watching documentories on the subject. One topic that from what I have gathered, concerns Hitler. Some think that he was a genius when it came to strategy, and some believe he was psychopathic moron, that just had some dumb luck in the beginning of his attempted takeover of Europe.

Personally, I think he was an idiot that just got lucky, and in the beginning, didn't meet any real opposition.

Curious to hear others thoughts or opinions.

I would agree Axxe, with the proviso that he had some very good military tacticians and strategists, on a caliber that would make Sun Tzu proud.
.

Offline DCD327

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Re: Hitler: Madman or Genius?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2020, 12:21:02 AM »
In a side note,  I for one am really appreciative of the fact Hitler wouldnt listen to his generals.
 
My Grandfather was in WW2 with 2nd armored division from 1942 to 1945.
In the thick of it from start in North Africa, Sicily, Omaha beach D Day, France, Luxemburg,  Belgium, Holland,  Germany.

During the battle of the bulge, 2nd armored was past AACHEN , through the seigfred  line, into Germany. Vonrundstadt didnt want to try to go to west Antwerp. A move which got the German army in the west destroyed.

Vonrundstadt wanted to go north, right up the German border and destroy US 1st Army, and 2nd armored division In  germany. Then man the Siegfred line for a defense I  the winter of 1944. .
This would have been a major blow, and no doubt would have brought the American attacks in the west to a screeching halt.

The USA  only had the 82nd and 101st airborne as reserves. And they were still chewed up bad by the failed  Montgomery  fiasco , operation market garden.

Two of the best German generals were von mantueffel and Vonrundstadt.

German general von mantueffel  want to use these same forces to surround, attack, and totally destroy  Pattons 3rd army in the south. Mantueffel was worried that southern Germany was defenseless.

Vonrundstadt argued Hodges 1st army was already into  to Germany and the bigger threat.
 Mantueffel agreed. Either attack was fine by him.
The two discussed Some of the battle of the bulge forces  to be sent to Metz to stop Patton.
The rest could attack Hodges.  Vonrunstadt was senior, so had Hitler listened, he would have won the argument, and AACHEN would have been it. .

Hitler insulted both of them , and flat out called them stupid children that didnt understand tactics or history.   I read Hitler ranted  aloud, " WHY ARE MY GENERALS SO STUPID. :th_thicon_lol:

Both Rundstadt and Mantueffel agreed Hitler's plan would lead to a disastrous defeat.

My Grandfather was In The US 1st army east of AACHEN in Germany,  that would have certainly been destroyed.

As it was, hitler demanded , they attack west to Antwerp.
 Because of this, US 2nd armored and us  1st army had time, and pulled back out of Germany into northern Belgium,  and attacked south into the germans who ran out of gas at Celles Belgium.
.
The US 2nd armored division,  totally destroyed 3 German armored divisions, 2nd panzer, 2nd SS panzer, and 12th SS panzer.  These were 3 of the most lethal, and toughest units in the German army. They had the best equipment,, panther, tiger, and king tigers tanks. .  But they were out of gas, out of supplies, and damn near froze to death.  They didnt have fuel to maneuver, and were killed in place.
Being strung out like they were, the Americans Destroyed them.

Had these German  units been in defense , dug in behind the sigfreid line. Oh boy. That would have been hell.
So thank God hitler wouldnt listen.

My life may have been much different.
Pap was wounded twice, but made it home in one piece , to have 2 sons and 6 grand kids.

Something I've thought about.  :th_thicon_idea:
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 03:00:55 AM by DCD327 »
Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often, and for the same reason.

There are two kinds of people in the world my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. YOU DIG.  " Blondie".

Well, any man that wouldnt cheat at cards for a poke, dont want one bad enough. " Gus".

Offline DCD327

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Re: Hitler: Madman or Genius?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2020, 03:10:26 AM »
[quote author=DCD327 link=topic=19372.msg207039#msg207039

As were talking about Hitler,, something I found very interesting, that has not been much talked about.
That is the relationship between Hitler and the British royal family.

Several of the kings brothers routinely vacationed in Germany.
Prince Edward had dinner with Hitler many times.
Prince. George Was hunting buddies with herman goering.
The royals had a prolonged relationship with Hitler and his top minions.

Ww2 started the day after Winston Churchill was elected. Winston didnt get along with the royals. They obviously didnt like him. The royals were liberal Hitler appeasers,, churchill was a hard line and hated Hitler and communism.
Churchill also had 2 of his own cabinet members that were big German sympathizers, and royal snitches.  AnD he knew it.



When all the code breaking and enigma intelligence came to fruition,, Winston told nobody but a few trusted  family members who were  officers in the royal navy.  Churchill was head of the navy for many years and had friends there.
The royals , his cabinet,  and parliament were NEVER TOLD.

It was the most closely guarded secret of the war. And due to alot of governments thinking enigma was unbreakable, they still used the machine and code into the later 1960s.  The cracking of enigma stayed secret into the late 1970s.

 Winston Churchill could read the  royals secret mail they were sending to Hitler. During the battle of Britain, the royals , went against their own government, and were trying to make a secret peace deal with Hitler. This "deal" also safeguarded the royals positions. They were going to give Hitler ALL of Europe and africa,,,  but the  Brits keep India and the far east brit colonies.

Churchill knew all this from enigma decripts..  The royals were committing high treason.

The 1st thing churchill does,, is declare an emergency meeting at parliament for the following morning. Churchil pointed out Britain had already appeased Hitler several times and Hitler lied and reneged on every "peace"deal he ever made. This was the speech where Winston said ( we shall fight in the streets, in the hills, we will NEVER surrender.! )

This got a standing ovation from parliament,  and they publically declared they would NOT strike any more  peace deals with Hitler.

That was EXACTLY what Winston was after.
Now the royals hands were totally tied.
They woukdnt dare suggest any more appeasement  peace deals.

The biggest Hitler appeaser was Loyd George. Very high up and powerful in the British government. He had repeatedly gave Hitler exactly what he want, when attacking Poland, annexing Austria, invading Czechoslovakia.  Loyd George's wife was also very verbal in British politics. They both hated Churchil, and publically stated it.
Loyd George's wife once said to churchill, in public,, "if I was YOUR wife,, I'd POISON you tea."
Churchil instantly replied, "If I was YOUR HUSBAND, I'd gladly drink it."
Churchill had the goods on the royals in a big way. He now could stop their secret political interference and meddling. The royals became silent.
Oddly enough, Loyd George and his wife all a sudden became silent. So he probably had the goods on Loyd george too.

Prince Edward was quietly ushered off and abdicated, to become governor of the Bahamas. Never to live in England again. He retired to France. With frances history of duplicity and turn coats,, that seemed fitting.

Prince George was killed in a mysterious military plane  crash In far north east Scotland in 1942. They were supposed to be doing a troop inspection WEST of england in Greenland.
But the plane was flying EAST from england heading towards Sweeden, with suit cases full of swedish money.

They said at the time ALL on board were killed. But later,  released document showed one pilot survived. Nobody knows who it was, and never talked to him.

Initially, they tried to twist it into making prince  George out some sort of hero,, and several cock and bull stories were told to try and cover up price George's mysterious death on an UNCHARTERED secret  flight, nobody knew about.
One initial story claimed he was in a radio controlled plane that blew up. Ok, WHY the pilots and passengers? 

But they could really find a legit reason he was on a secret uncharted flight, heading EAST towards sweeden,  loaded with money.

Since they couldn't make a HERO outta George, they just claimed it was a secret flight they couldn't talk about.

Hitler, normally would have jumped all over this for the propaganda value,, but suspected  His good friend Rudolph Hess was  somehow involved  with prince george,, so germany claimed Hess was crazy and left it at that.

They All finally realized it ALL just needed to go away, and be swept under the rug.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 01:07:30 PM by DCD327 »
Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often, and for the same reason.

There are two kinds of people in the world my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. YOU DIG.  " Blondie".

Well, any man that wouldnt cheat at cards for a poke, dont want one bad enough. " Gus".

Offline Shield45

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Re: Hitler: Madman or Genius?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2020, 04:46:08 PM »
Hitler IMO was a smart strategist and motivational speaker. That is up until he became a drug addict. Once he began down the path he was done for.

From his internet bio.

Prescribed 90 medications during the war years by his personal physician, Theodor Morell, Hitler took many pills each day for chronic stomach problems and other ailments.[411] He regularly consumed amphetamine, barbiturates, opiates, and cocaine,[412][413] as well as potassium bromide and atropa belladonna (the latter in the form of Doktor Koster's Antigaspills).[414] He suffered ruptured eardrums as a result of the 20 July plot bomb blast in 1944, and 200 wood splinters had to be removed from his legs.[415] Newsreel footage of Hitler shows tremors in his left hand and a shuffling walk, which began before the war and worsened towards the end of his life.[411] Ernst-Günther Schenck and several other doctors who met Hitler in the last weeks of his life also formed a diagnosis of Parkinson's disease.[416]

Had he avoided the pitfalls of addiction things may have had a different result.

Not a big Adolph fan but I too enjoy WWII history.



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Offline DCD327

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Re: Hitler: Madman or Genius?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2020, 01:08:02 PM »
My opinion of Winston Churchill, he was a brilliant politician. He wasnt  above becoming a brutal cut throat if needed. He had his mistakes.  And he certainly pulled a few dirty tricks. Like signing a secret deal with stalin trading  Poland for Greece. A deal stalin accepted, but never honored.

. As a politician in British society, the man was incredible. He understood the British parliament totally, and how the British mind worked as a people. And used it all to full effect. 

The fact churchil was aware enough of appeasers and spys,, then managed  keep enigma totally secret from ALL enemies of the crown,  BOTH INSIDE AND OUT, was incredibly smart.

Enigma was one of most important intelligence coups ever.
They no doubt couldn't win the war without The United States,, but,, 

  Winning the uboat war In  the Atlantic, and keeping the American supplies, men, and material flowing won the war.

Imo, It could not have been done without enigma. We knew exactly WHERE the uboats were to hunt them down and sink them. Doenitz had over 450 subs In  the Atlantic. Most were sunk thanks to enigma.

Germany could not stop the supplies. Which the USA  built up and invaded Europe, defeating  hitler..

Any of churchill  bad aside,, Britain was lucky as a country to have him for ww2.
The minute ww2 was over, churchill quietly faded into obscurity. 
Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often, and for the same reason.

There are two kinds of people in the world my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. YOU DIG.  " Blondie".

Well, any man that wouldnt cheat at cards for a poke, dont want one bad enough. " Gus".

Offline Axxe55

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Re: Hitler: Madman or Genius?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2020, 07:36:05 PM »
I think many of you see Hitler the same as I do.

Even as evil as Hitler was, Stalin IMO, was even more evil, and responsible for many more deaths than Hitler, but we aligned with Stalin during WW2.

Personally, I still have a hard time understanding that.
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Offline DCD327

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Re: Hitler: Madman or Genius?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2020, 08:25:19 PM »
Churchill hated communism. Even in 1915 when he was lord of the admiralty, he was loud and clear about his hatred of bolchevecs communism. Stalin was in those groups, alough, little known.

When Hitler rose to power, churchill seen him for what he was, a pschycotic maniac , pathological liar and manipulator. Stories were already coming out of Germany in the 1930s of atrocities. The nazis  euthanized hospitals full of retarded and otherwise, mentally, or physically disabled people.
ANYONE who didnt fit their master race , got killed.
When they invaded the Soviet union, it was a war of inihalation.  They killed everybody. After the conventional troops went through and won the territory,  special squads came in and wiped put the civilians.
Hitler wanted that land empty,, for his MASTER race germans.
Any German who was deemed master race acceptable,, could move into Any conquered country, and take whatever homes and land they wanted. The previous owners were sent to death camps or outright shot.

Churchill deemed Hitler as the biggest threat mankind had yet seen. They had som pretty serious weapons technology, and were working on atom bombs.
Germany had to be DESTROYED. Not defeated,,,but DESTROYED, and divided up never to do it AGAIN.  They caused 3 wars in 50 years.

When ask that very question about stalin.
Churchill knew perfectly well how evil stalin was,, but the soviet union at that time was like a 3rd world country. Not much industry, no military to speak of, and few weapons on war.
When ask about allies with stalin,,,, churchill said, " to stop Hitler, I would at least make a favorable reference to using stalin to help make that end. "
He made a deal with the devil, and he knew it.
In hindsight,,, at the time,,, I dont think WE had much of a choice.
I think churchill also realized the German sympathizers in Britain,  aka,  the royal family,, were leaning real hard on white supremacy stuff. Think about that. At that time,, How did the "royals" marry, breed, etc, etc. ? Hitler was a threat coming and going. Inside and put.

Numbers are estimates from sources.

The Soviets lost some 40 million in ww2, plus another 10 million Soviets,  stalin killed.
The Soviets killed some 3.5 million German soldiers. Its estimated another 500k german civilians. Some estimates say 5 million germans lost in ww2.
6 millions Jews. As many as 10 million civilians in conquered countries.
Just adding estimates,, HOW could the United States and Britain ever handle defeating a German army of 5 million men armed the way they were. And they would have certainly had time to develop their nukes. More jet fighters.


As it was, we never faced more than 50 German divisions,,, most chewed up inRussia, so not at full strength. A German division was 8000 men.  That's only 400,000 men.
And it cost the USA 450,000 casualtys.
What we did for stalin was made his armys mobile. With studebaker and GMC 6 x 6 army trucks.
We really didnt send much in the way of actual arms and munitions. But trucks and food supplies . Russia couldn't feed their military. Stalin starved the people to feed the army.

So yup,, we made a deal with the devil.
I dont think we had much choice.


It cost Russia 50 million men to help.
We made a deal with the devil,,stalin killed more people than Hitler did. Most were his own. , but did we have any choice?
Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often, and for the same reason.

There are two kinds of people in the world my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. YOU DIG.  " Blondie".

Well, any man that wouldnt cheat at cards for a poke, dont want one bad enough. " Gus".

Offline DCD327

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Re: Hitler: Madman or Genius?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2020, 08:52:18 PM »
At the end of the war, and I was told this by a Soviet pow work camp survivor who was in a Pittsburgh hospital. Then years later, actually seen it on film.
When the Soviets took Poland back,, they let the germans wipe out a polish uprising against Germany. They sat outside poland until the germans won, then left.

When Soviet troops did enter poland,, there were still German civilians who took polish propertys living there.
They allowed the polish civilians to shoot anyone they wanted. If you wanted to kill sympathizers, or germans, just ask a soldier. He would go with you, give the gun to you, and bang. He said this went on for over a month.

Think about that. The russains wanted Poland's population whittled down as bad as the germans did. So they allowed it.
Much of the same went on I  the American and British sectors with prison camp guards and german soldiers hiding as civilians.

The allies wanted Germany destroyed. So they couldn't do it again.

And look now. There is a radical  master race party coming to power in Germany as we speak. They're taking power again too.

They just cant seem to help themselves.
And that crazy Angela Merkel and her crazy liberal ideas and policy,  is what got it all started again.
I think the next few years it's going to get ugly in germany. Only this time, its not the Jews, it's the muslims.
Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often, and for the same reason.

There are two kinds of people in the world my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. YOU DIG.  " Blondie".

Well, any man that wouldnt cheat at cards for a poke, dont want one bad enough. " Gus".