Author Topic: Mandatory Military Service?  (Read 2822 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Axxe55

  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • ****
  • Posts: 2200
  • Trophy Husband! Just ask my wife!
    • View Profile
Mandatory Military Service?
« on: April 05, 2019, 06:57:21 AM »
the subject, mandatory military service. this subject comes up occasionally, many thinking that serving a mandatory period of time in one of the branches of the military would be good for every young person just leaving high school. in some ways I use to believe that as well. now, not so sure.

just some background on my thoughts an opinions. when I was still in high school, I wanted to join the military, primarily the Marine Corps. but due to medical issues beyond my control, the USMC denied my application for medical reasons, as did all of the other four branches of the military. (yes, I even tried the Coast Guard) but my thoughts were, that joining voluntarily made it much more personal and had more meaning in terms of doing a patriotic duty. my father tried to get me to join the Air Force and my uncle was trying to push me towards the Navy, and had my grandfather been alive, I am pretty sure he would have been steering me to the Army! well I wanted to join the Marine Corps. partly because I thought they were the meanest toughest SOB's that ever wore a uniform and partly to aggravate my entire family. but I wanted to enlist, to be part of a special fraternity, to be part of something much bigger and better than myself.

that is why part of me disagrees with making military service mandatory. I have to wonder if such individuals could be trusted when needed, since they are being forced to be there. in my way of thinking, i'd trust someone who volunteered faster than someone made to be there from mandatory requirement. I know some people cite that Switzerland does have such mandatory requirement for military or public service, and it does seem to work there, but IMO, I think their thoughts and cultures are much different than ours and they have been doing it for many, many years now.

part of me thinks it could be bad, but part of me thinks it could be good, instilling values and ethics into the younger generation and making them appreciate what our veterans have been through.

what does everyone else think?
Misguided Miscreant!
North of Hell, and South of Heaven. Texas, by God!
"It is far better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees."
Remember the Alamo.
NRA Member. TSRA Member.
"I have one nerve left, and it seems there is that one idiot that feels the need to get on it."
"Go ahead, make my day." Dirty Harry. (Carries a 44 Magnum. Nuf said.)

Offline TXAZ

  • Gun Guru
  • ******
  • Posts: 7269
  • أنا لست إرهابياً
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2019, 08:51:11 AM »
Id agree not everyone is cut out for military service, but would vote for “compulsory public service” for 1-3 years.    This could be military, Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC)-like, other structured service programs or providing unique skills (medical, engineering, legal, etc).
I wasn't in the military (was 18 during Vietnam drawdown - virtuality no enlisting then) but served in another capacity for 10 years and proud to have served my country in a pretty unique way.
.

Offline RaySendero

  • Expert Magazine Loader
  • *
  • Posts: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2019, 11:32:17 AM »

what does everyone else think?


Men, women or both?
Ray

Offline DCD327

  • 15 Yard Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1774
  • Military.
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2019, 12:47:40 PM »
While I used to think is was a GOOD idea,, I now dont think it even possible.

We seen what happened in the early Iraq days  when you send a bunch of PC snowflakes, who joined up just to get a paycheck, into battle. Can you say  jessica lynch? Those people DID NOT even fire their weapons.  :afraid4:  They layed right down and allowed themselves to be taken prisonor. WTF ? AND ITS WAS NOT THEIR FAULT.  The better question would be, WHY were they even there in the 1st place.  :th_nuts: That was the ARMYS FAULT.

What really pissed me off at the time was that OUR military was sending untrained people  into a combat zones. NOTHING good can come of that,, not to mention what it does to our militarys reputation as a whole.

When I joined up @ the ripe old age of 17, I was in basic 3 months after high school graduation. I completed basic before I turned 18. That was actually an issue with the Army. I had to have my parents sign waivers.

We STILL...

Carried REAL M16's. And as many on this forum experienced, we were assigned a real personal  weapon and memorized its serial #.
Used LIVE AMMO on guard duty.
Used LIVE AMMO on live fire assault training.
Used LIVE grenades in training.
Did DAYLIGHT and NIGHTIME assault exercises.

Our training was actually dangerous and people STILL got killed in training accidents.
We got used to LIVE M60/7.62 tracer rounds ripping overhead, and your buddys M16 rounds snapping past you, as you assaulted a target during live fire exercises. 

The responsibility was VERY REAL. What we were doing was serious shit.
THAT WAS STANDARD training for the Army and Marines.

But we were trained to the nines, and could handle the pressure.
The whole idea was to get us used to being shot at and generate an AUTOMATIC response.  IT WORKED. To this day, if a bullet snaps past me, it DOES NOT SCARE ME, it PISSES ME OFF. And I go into auto response mode.

You cannot function being scared, but you can function pissed off. That really was the whole idea behind the training. Some guys would go into a mode where they were laughing and howling and screaming  like they were having the time of their life. Just ANOTHER way to overcome the fear.
When I enlisted in 1982, the military was being VERY picky and only took the cream off the top, so to speak. It was actually hard to even get in. The ABSOLUTE BEST PART was our training Cadre was mostly ALL VIETNAM VETERANS, :thumbsup1:  :rocknroll2: , and our training was awesome. THEY KNEW what it would take to send us into combat,, and while they were tougher than nails,, their training and guidance was PRICELESS.  4 of our DI's, AND our 1st shirt  were Vietnam 173rd Airborne brigade.   :th_thicon_idea: And you talk about tough.  To this day,, I LOVE THOSE GUYS.  :thumbsup1: My RESPECT,  ADMIRATION, and GRATITUDE for them is off the charts.  :wave1:
 
 
ANYONE that couldnt cut it back then,, was GONE.  No bones about it.
------------------------------------------------------

20 years later when my step son joined up,, the PC snowflake pansy culture had crept into our military. He is now an E9 two years from retiring.

He carried a RUBBER M16 mock up on guard duty.  :thinker:  :th_nuts:
They were/are  lucky to see a rifle range once a year. We did that almost every saturday just for something to do. Go to the Armory, sign out ANYTHING you were qualified on, and go to the range. It was fun,   :thumbsup1:  until cleaning time came.  :thumbsdown:

They dont do that anymore.

Now they spend Saturday taking classes on how NOT to offend some snowflake.   :bangheadonwall: :bangheadonwall:

With the PC snowflake culture creeping into our military ever deeper,, I absolutely DONT think  mandatory service is a good idea anymore.
I also think a PRE BASIC training test along with mental evaluation, should be taken to even be considered for enlistment.  And it should be harsh, and brutal,, just to weed out the dipsticks.

Its just too much responsibility,, and these kids nowdays simply cannot, either be trusted to be responsible in the first place, but cant handle it anyway.

We are NOT the U.N.   We DONT need cub scouts collecting a check.
We need men and women that can be responsible enough, and tough enough to handle the job.
HARD training does that.   :th_thicon_idea:
But you gotta throw  away the phoebias, ist, ism's, right along with the crybabys.
THAT IS NOT why they are there.




« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 01:33:31 PM by DCD327 »
Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often, and for the same reason.

There are two kinds of people in the world my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. YOU DIG.  " Blondie".

Well, any man that wouldnt cheat at cards for a poke, dont want one bad enough. " Gus".

Offline Tango

  • Military
  • Always in the 10 Ring
  • *****
  • Posts: 3322
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2019, 01:43:01 PM »
.
I agree with TXAZ - some mandatory "service", doesn't have to be the Military (I think that a CCC should be for men who want to "work" to support a family (like it used to be), not part of a mandatory "service" program)

and no, not women in the Military - unless the powers that be re-institute branches like WACs, WAVEs, etc (just not "the regular" Service)

and no, no trans or gays in the regular Military !!!!!

when I went into the Service (Army) I volunteered for the Draft (a 2 year stint vs 3 years) but re-enlisted during that time - then later attended Infantry OCS and Flight School - a mostly good 9 years of Service

Israel, I believe, had a mandatory Military program
Follow Me - Martin Baker Tie Club member
Si Vis pacem, para Bellum

Offline Axxe55

  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • ****
  • Posts: 2200
  • Trophy Husband! Just ask my wife!
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2019, 02:54:37 PM »

what does everyone else think?


Men, women or both?

Both. I think that young ladies would benefit just as much as young men from some sort of mandatory service.
Misguided Miscreant!
North of Hell, and South of Heaven. Texas, by God!
"It is far better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees."
Remember the Alamo.
NRA Member. TSRA Member.
"I have one nerve left, and it seems there is that one idiot that feels the need to get on it."
"Go ahead, make my day." Dirty Harry. (Carries a 44 Magnum. Nuf said.)

Offline RaySendero

  • Expert Magazine Loader
  • *
  • Posts: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2019, 06:47:16 AM »

Both. I think that young ladies would benefit just as much as young men from some sort of mandatory service.


In theory, I would like all 18yo Americans to do 6mo to 1yr service training.

In Practice, I would expect many Potential Problems,
and with both Unforeseen & Unintended Consequences.

This could be combined with a CHOICE going in !!!
If one elects, they could skip this service
But would loose their citizenship status, including the right to vote and to hold any elected office for life!!!
Ray

Offline Skolnick

  • Range Rat
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2019, 10:14:47 AM »
what does everyone else think?

Article XIII
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Offline Axxe55

  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • ****
  • Posts: 2200
  • Trophy Husband! Just ask my wife!
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2019, 10:48:10 AM »
what does everyone else think?

Article XIII
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Just curious, then how do you explain the draft, and selective service?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System

Because, that could be termed involuntary servitude.
Misguided Miscreant!
North of Hell, and South of Heaven. Texas, by God!
"It is far better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees."
Remember the Alamo.
NRA Member. TSRA Member.
"I have one nerve left, and it seems there is that one idiot that feels the need to get on it."
"Go ahead, make my day." Dirty Harry. (Carries a 44 Magnum. Nuf said.)

Offline Alte Schule

  • Military
  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • *****
  • Posts: 2715
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2019, 11:16:36 AM »
Slaves and indentured servants do not receive monetary reimbursement for their work. Persons drafted into the military do.
Article XIII was referenced many times during the Vietnam War by persons attempting to avoid the military draft. Never worked.
This gun is liberty; hold for certain that the day when you no more have it, you will be returned to slavery.
Toussaint Louverture

Offline RaySendero

  • Expert Magazine Loader
  • *
  • Posts: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2019, 11:24:09 AM »
Can't even invoke AXIII in given a choice.
Ray

Offline Skolnick

  • Range Rat
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2019, 11:46:42 AM »
Just curious, then how do you explain the draft, and selective service?

How can anyone harmonize the 13th Amendment with involuntary jury servitude?

First off, with, or without, the Constitution, can anything justify human bondage?

Second, a declaration of war will suspend many of the civil liberties guaranteed by the Constitution.

Third, presumably a declaration of a State of Emergency that invokes martial law will too.

Fourth, they just take it one giant step further to include a State of Emergency that invokes no disruption of normality.

That being said, here is reality ...

The Constitution forbids the President from accepting "any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them", yet Reagan receive a pension from the State of California for all of his 8 years as President, and Social Security for most of his 8 years in office. It says no other emolument, it does not exempt ones that were earned over a period of time.

The Constitution clearly says that no state shall be formed out of an existing state without the approval of the affected state. When West Virginia opted out of Virginia, the ELECTED (notice I said "elected") state legislature of Virginia voted, "NO". So what is West Virginia doing there?

The Constitution forbids anyone under 30 years of age from becoming a Senator, yet Henry Clay was appointed at 29 yrs, 7 months, and 7 days of age -- and he was only the third youngest Senator!

The Constitution requires all money bills to originate in the House, yet major provisions of the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 originated in the Senate.

Amendment Five says "No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law ...", yet R.I.C.O. statutes can only function without a court ordered seizure (if there is a court ordered seizure, then there is no need to use R.I.C.O. to seize the property).

According to Lost Rights (1994) by James Bovard, the percentage of asset forfeiture where the property owners are never charged with a crime is 80%.

Just because the Constitution prohibits it, does not mean it will be prohibited.

Offline Skolnick

  • Range Rat
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2019, 11:53:58 AM »
Slaves and indentured servants do not receive monetary reimbursement for their work. Persons drafted into the military do.

Slaves were paid (not much) in the Colonies and the early US. How do you think some of them bought their freedom?

That being said, "involuntary" is not negated by a wage. If it is, then the Party of the First Part could justifiably enslave -- I mean draft -- any Party of the Second Part if the Party of the First Part offers the Party of the Second Part room and board and $15 an hour.

Offline Alte Schule

  • Military
  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • *****
  • Posts: 2715
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2019, 01:51:04 PM »
Many of the issues you raise and the interpretations of same may or may not have merit but the majority have been ruled on by the various courts of this country. Agree or disagree with those court/legal decisions is your right as a individual and an American citizen. Our legal system may not be perfect but it is far better, in my opinion, than anything else on this planet although the current political circus revolving in this country is shameful.
I also vehemently disagree with Asset Forfeiture Laws. At least some states have taken the steps to outright ban enforcement of that law in their state or have placed stringent burden of proof restrictions on law enforcement when enforcing asset forfeiture laws.
The problem with the law right right now, as I see it, is that AG Eric Holder under Obama, struck down certain elements of the law and AG Sessions, under Trump, placed those provisions back in play. Although Justice Clarence Thomas has issued a scathing opinion and rebuttal of the law no single case challenging the law has been brought before the Supreme Court, at least that I'm aware, where a yay or nay decision was made though there may be one out there working it's way through the judicial hurdles.
But hey we are getting off topic here so I'm just going to close this out on my part.
This gun is liberty; hold for certain that the day when you no more have it, you will be returned to slavery.
Toussaint Louverture

Offline Axxe55

  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • ****
  • Posts: 2200
  • Trophy Husband! Just ask my wife!
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2019, 04:29:01 PM »
Slaves and indentured servants do not receive monetary reimbursement for their work. Persons drafted into the military do.

Slaves were paid (not much) in the Colonies and the early US. How do you think some of them bought their freedom?

That being said, "involuntary" is not negated by a wage. If it is, then the Party of the First Part could justifiably enslave -- I mean draft -- any Party of the Second Part if the Party of the First Part offers the Party of the Second Part room and board and $15 an hour.

Give me room and board and $15 an hour and you can draft me too!  :th_thicon_funny: :th_thicon_lol:
Misguided Miscreant!
North of Hell, and South of Heaven. Texas, by God!
"It is far better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees."
Remember the Alamo.
NRA Member. TSRA Member.
"I have one nerve left, and it seems there is that one idiot that feels the need to get on it."
"Go ahead, make my day." Dirty Harry. (Carries a 44 Magnum. Nuf said.)

Offline TXAZ

  • Gun Guru
  • ******
  • Posts: 7269
  • أنا لست إرهابياً
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2019, 06:06:54 PM »

Give me room and board and $15 an hour and you can draft me too!  :th_thicon_funny: :th_thicon_lol:

And learn a skill.
And learn how to work as a team.
And learn duty, service to others, integrity, courage and other values that are severely lacking in many schools and families.
.

Offline Axxe55

  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • ****
  • Posts: 2200
  • Trophy Husband! Just ask my wife!
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2019, 06:12:54 PM »

Give me room and board and $15 an hour and you can draft me too!  :th_thicon_funny: :th_thicon_lol:

And learn a skill.
And learn how to work as a team.
And learn duty, service to others, integrity, courage and other values that are severely lacking in many schools and families.

My grandfather belonged to the CCC back in the 1930's. He learned a skill, (working heavy equipment.) that he used in his life to earn a living supporting my grandmother, and father. He did very well over the years. He never got rich, or wealthy, but he made a very good living all those years.
Misguided Miscreant!
North of Hell, and South of Heaven. Texas, by God!
"It is far better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees."
Remember the Alamo.
NRA Member. TSRA Member.
"I have one nerve left, and it seems there is that one idiot that feels the need to get on it."
"Go ahead, make my day." Dirty Harry. (Carries a 44 Magnum. Nuf said.)

Offline randyjaco

  • 5 Yard Shooter
  • **
  • Posts: 487
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2019, 06:17:51 PM »
I think EVERY American citizen owes a debt to his or her country. That debt ought to be paid with some valuable sort of service. That could (preferably) be military service. As someone mentioned earlier that not all are cut out for that, but it could be a social or needed government service. Since military service might involve death or extended service contract due to war, the non-military service should be a longer contract period (like 2x). But it shouldn't be expected to be a career path for most. These service people should be paid a reasonable living wage. Participants should be penalized for non-performance and competitively rewarded for good performance. 

For those American's that don't wish to participate, could simply sign away any and all future government benefits and possibly the right to vote.

If this program applies to everyone, then everyone can plan for their future disruption of life.

Personally, I was the recipient of a very low draft number back in the late 60s. I ended up choosing the Marine Corps but wasn't particularly happy about having to make that choice. In the end, my period of service was of great benefit to me.

Randy
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 08:03:36 PM by randyjaco »
Do yourself a favor, find America One News Network (OANN) on your cable carrier. 208 on Uverse. News without the Network BS or bias

"A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again." (Unknown)

"There are three and only three ways to reform our Congressional legislation, familiarly called, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box" (Frederick Douglass)

Offline Axxe55

  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • ****
  • Posts: 2200
  • Trophy Husband! Just ask my wife!
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2019, 06:34:28 PM »
Well stated Randyjaco!  :th_thicon_idea:

Yes, we all owe this country something. We are graced with the life we live because of the sacrifices of those who do so voluntarily for the most part.

I may not have served in the military in any way, but I do owe a debt of gratitude to those who have and still do. I take honoring those who have served, still serve and those lost in the service of our country very seriously.

Veterans, and those still serving are very much honored in the Axxe household.
Misguided Miscreant!
North of Hell, and South of Heaven. Texas, by God!
"It is far better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees."
Remember the Alamo.
NRA Member. TSRA Member.
"I have one nerve left, and it seems there is that one idiot that feels the need to get on it."
"Go ahead, make my day." Dirty Harry. (Carries a 44 Magnum. Nuf said.)

Offline DCD327

  • 15 Yard Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1774
  • Military.
    • View Profile
Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2019, 10:31:23 PM »
I like it when you add the CCC into the mix.

Give everyone the option to join either the military, or the CCC.
Take the military training back to brutal tactics and training to weed out those that cant hack it.
They now have no option but to join the CCC to get their service in.
That could work.

I think thats been a part of the massive explosion of PTSD. They are sending far to many snowflake  kids into combat that couldnt even pass 1/2 the training I did. They would have been gone in the 1st week.  :facepalm:

And, last I knew, Israel does have mandatory service. For those that get good service marks , they also have the option of KEEPING their M16/M4.  They can take it home and carry it everyday in public.
BUT,,,,,, BUT,,,,,,, they are 100% responsible for that weapon, and EVERYTHING it does.
As it should be.  :th_thicon_idea: And if they decide they dont want to deal with the responsibility, they can turn it back in anytime.
And I believe they also have to re-qualify  twice a year.

Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often, and for the same reason.

There are two kinds of people in the world my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. YOU DIG.  " Blondie".

Well, any man that wouldnt cheat at cards for a poke, dont want one bad enough. " Gus".