Author Topic: Mandatory Military Service?  (Read 2729 times)

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Offline Skolnick

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2019, 10:32:02 PM »
Give me room and board and $15 an hour and you can draft me too!

That makes your involuntary servitude voluntary???


I think EVERY American citizen owes a debt to his or her country. That debt ought to be paid with some valuable sort of service. That could (preferably) be military service.

As in the citizen exists to serve the country?

As in, the Declaration of Independence got it wrong?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ...

Offline Axxe55

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2019, 10:49:47 PM »
Give me room and board and $15 an hour and you can draft me too!

That makes your involuntary servitude voluntary???


I think EVERY American citizen owes a debt to his or her country. That debt ought to be paid with some valuable sort of service. That could (preferably) be military service.

As in the citizen exists to serve the country?

As in, the Declaration of Independence got it wrong?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ...

Ummmm...okay!  :wave1:

Maybe I grew up under different circumstances than yourself. Before I left home, I lived as essentially "slave" labor for our father on the farm! Trust me, what it taught me was a valuable work ethic, and the value of a dollar earned. I carried such lesson through my entire adult life and it hasn't been any hardship that I can see. I have done quite well over the years. If anything, it makes me appreciate the freedoms and the rights we have in this great country. I personally think this is a lesson many of the younger generations could stand to learn. As well as appreciating and honoring those who sacrifice so much so that they can enjoy the freedoms and rights that they are able to.

Thank a veteran or someone still serving for this country for the rights we have and are able to exercise is my motto.
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Offline TXAZ

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2019, 10:55:37 PM »
I think EVERY American citizen owes a debt to his or her country. That debt ought to be paid with some valuable sort of service.

Randy

(my highlights)
Absolutely agree Randy.


I agree Randy:  EVERY American owes this country a debt of gratitude (IMHO).  Many have no clue of what that means or how lucky they are to live in the US.  But it's not free, even if you never pay / serve / appreciate.  Someone has to do one of many jobs.  You and I have both traveled around the world enough to realize there are more shi+-hole and repressive countries in the world than states in the US.  How many countries in the world can you criticize the leader without potential retribution?  It's a small number.

I wasn't in the military but was called to serve for 10 years overseas, and very proud I did.

Most US citizens don't realize how good life is in the US compared to the rest of the world. 

That's a real pity.


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Offline TXAZ

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2019, 10:57:14 PM »

... it makes me appreciate the freedoms and the rights we have in this great country. I personally think this is a lesson many of the younger generations could stand to learn. As well as appreciating and honoring those who sacrifice so much so that they can enjoy the freedoms and rights that they are able to.

Thank a veteran or someone still serving for this country for the rights we have and are able to exercise is my motto.

AMEN!
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Offline Axxe55

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2019, 11:21:15 PM »

... it makes me appreciate the freedoms and the rights we have in this great country. I personally think this is a lesson many of the younger generations could stand to learn. As well as appreciating and honoring those who sacrifice so much so that they can enjoy the freedoms and rights that they are able to.

Thank a veteran or someone still serving for this country for the rights we have and are able to exercise is my motto.

AMEN!

When I hear someone complaining about how they feel our rights or freedoms are being restricted or infringed, I just shake my damn head and tell them they should just leave and find another country with what we have here that is better.

No, our country isn't perfect, but I can't think of another country that is better than our great United States of America!

God Bless our country.
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Offline DCD327

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2019, 11:24:17 PM »

... it makes me appreciate the freedoms and the rights we have in this great country. I personally think this is a lesson many of the younger generations could stand to learn. As well as appreciating and honoring those who sacrifice so much so that they can enjoy the freedoms and rights that they are able to.

Thank a veteran or someone still serving for this country for the rights we have and are able to exercise is my motto.

AMEN!

AMEN is right.  :thumbsup1:

I had a Great Grandfather serve in the Revolution.
My Great Great Grandfather and several family members served in 1864. My GG Grandpap was wounded at Chancellorsville. His  one cousin killed at Gettysburg, and another cousin made it through without a scratch.
My Great Grandfather, and more relatives served in WW1.
My Grandfather, both his brothers, ( 1 tanker and two combat engineers, all 3 wounded, Pap 3 times, ) and many more relatives served in WW2.
Several Uncles served in Korea. 1 wounded badly, but survived until 1976. 
Several Uncles served in Vietnam.

When I enlisted in 1982, I couldnt have been more proud and pleased as when I came home on leave and walked down the sidewalk to see the smile on my GrandPaps face.

Even with a family who did their part and then some,, I STILL felt the need to serve MY  COUNTRY.  I WANTED to.  Im glad I did. Proud I did. And wouldnt trade it for the world.  :wave1:
I still feel a loyalty and need to shape MY actions,  to somehow serve and HELP  MY COUNTRY.

Randy, Axxe and Txaz ALL nailed it IMO. These kids today have ZERO appreciation for the rhyme or reason they have their freedoms to act like jerks. They EXPECT and DEMAND it,, when they HAVE NOT even remotely EARNED that right. And show NO appreciation, and even disrespect  for those that made sacrifices to help THEM keep it.

The Constitution and its Rights ARE NOT FREE.
SOMEONE, MANY, paid for those Rights with their lives.

Just saying those Rights belong to YOU, just because its on a piece of paper is pathetic.
They DONT belong to YOU just because YOU demand it.

Whether serving  military, government, state , local, or personal,  They have been fought for by people on EVERY level since the day that document was written.

And the ONLY way those Rights YOU libtards exercise for free,   will stay free,  is because MORE people keep stepping up to the plate EVERYDAY to fight for them,, for you.

Do I think WE ALL owe our country a debt  for our freedoms ? 
You're DAMNED RIGHT  I DO. 

Edit to add,,

Just to be clear,, I DONT think you need to join the military to serve your country and pay that debt. That was just one way I decided to do it. With my familys history, it just seemed natural to me.

 IMO, as a citizen of the USA, you can pay some of that  debt,  by just being a GOOD & LOYAL PATRIOTIC citizen.
Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often, and for the same reason.

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Offline Axxe55

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2019, 11:31:38 PM »
Thank you to all of you who served our great country. You all have my utmost respect and appreciation for your service. It has allowed me to live the life I have led.

The entire Axxe household feels this way. As does my entire family. I still have younger members of our family that are serving in various branches of the military.

Thank you again for all you have done.
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Offline Skolnick

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2019, 11:37:30 PM »
Maybe I grew up under different circumstances than yourself. Before I left home, I lived as essentially "slave" labor for our father on the farm! Trust me, what it taught me was a valuable work ethic, and the value of a dollar earned. I carried such lesson through my entire adult life and it hasn't been any hardship that I can see.

Consenting behavior among adults implies adults, not children of those adults. If a 12 year old child is forced to work for and by Mom and Pop, that is a whole different ball of wax than a 45 year old being forced to work for and by 70 year old Uncle Fred.

If it is okay to enslave soldiers, then it ought to be equally okay to enslave politicians, judges, cops, teachers, and pot hole fillers.


EVERY American owes this country a debt of gratitude (IMHO).

Agreed. And I extend that debt of gratitude to every Frenchman, Englishman, Belgian, Greek, and Luxembourger. Heck, even the Germans, Italians, and Japanese owe the USA for not living in a police state. That being said, a debt of gratitude does not justify human bondage. If a child born here, in gratitude for blood spilled on their behalf, owes the country military service, does not the French president?

Offline Axxe55

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2019, 11:46:21 PM »
Maybe I grew up under different circumstances than yourself. Before I left home, I lived as essentially "slave" labor for our father on the farm! Trust me, what it taught me was a valuable work ethic, and the value of a dollar earned. I carried such lesson through my entire adult life and it hasn't been any hardship that I can see.

Consenting behavior among adults implies adults, not children of those adults. If a 12 year old child is forced to work for and by Mom and Pop, that is a whole different ball of wax than a 45 year old being forced to work for and by 70 year old Uncle Fred.

If it is okay to enslave soldiers, then it ought to be equally okay to enslave politicians, judges, cops, teachers, and pot hole fillers.


EVERY American owes this country a debt of gratitude (IMHO).

Agreed. And I extend that debt of gratitude to every Frenchman, Englishman, Belgian, Greek, and Luxembourger. Heck, even the Germans, Italians, and Japanese owe the USA for not living in a police state. That being said, a debt of gratitude does not justify human bondage. If a child born here, in gratitude for blood spilled on their behalf, owes the country military service, does not the French president?

So I guess if someone is under the age of 18, in your opinions on this, they can be slave labor then?

Dude, that hole you're digging is getting deeper with every post you make on this subject! Just saying. You might want to stop while you're ahead. Just a suggestion.
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Offline Skolnick

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2019, 12:03:06 AM »
So I guess if someone is under the age of 18, in your opinions on this, they can be slave labor then?

That is not what I said.

I said that children being forced to work for their parents is not the same as adult slavery.

But since I am going to be picked apart, let me qualify that by adding there is a point where children working on the family farm, or doing chores, can go too far.

That being said, I do not condone adult human bondage even for noble causes. Maybe some do, but I don't.

Dude, that hole you're digging is getting deeper with every post you make on this subject! Just saying. You might want to stop while you're ahead. Just a suggestion.

Let me dig that hole a whole lot deeper and wider! Let's hear it from all who oppose the following statement:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Offline Axxe55

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2019, 12:15:15 AM »
Hmmm........ummm...okay, or whatever. I see you like digging holes dude! Keep on digging, and I'll bring you another shovel!  :th_nuts:
Misguided Miscreant!
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Offline TXAZ

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2019, 12:20:05 AM »
Troll we have here?
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Offline Axxe55

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2019, 12:33:32 AM »
Troll we have here?

I'm trying to play nice!  :wave1:
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Offline RaySendero

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2019, 07:34:22 AM »
Some people are just plain unfit for Military service.
Ray

Offline Tango

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2019, 08:26:20 AM »
.
for Skolnick :  perhaps I missed it (I don't wanna wade thru your ramblings.....) but have you served our Country, in any capacity ?
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Offline Skolnick

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2019, 08:51:23 AM »
Keep on digging, and I'll bring you another shovel!

Troll we have here?

It seems as if some folks have a problem with the Thirteenth Amendment. I don't.

I offer no apologies, ever, for supporting the letter and spirit of the Thirteenth Amendment. If you're in favor of human bondage, don't sugarcoat it with terms like "debt of gratitude" or use euphemisms like "disruption of life"; don't try to cleanse the evil out of human bondage.

If supporting the Thirteenth Amendment is trolling, or hole digging, or simply bad manners, then I support the Thirteenth Amendment -- no matter how inconvenient it is to anyone's agenda.



Let's hear it from all who oppose the following statement:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Anyone?

Offline Skolnick

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2019, 08:53:09 AM »
or Skolnick :  perhaps I missed it (I don't wanna wade thru your ramblings.....) but have you served our Country, in any capacity ?

No, you didn't miss it, but what possible difference can it make? Either my words are valid on their own merit or they are not.

That being said, I am 72 years old and a Viet Nam disable vet. Now, does that make a difference in the validity of the Thirteenth Amendment?

If my service to my community was on the chain gang, would that make a difference in the validity of the Thirteenth Amendment?

Online Gilgondorin

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2019, 09:10:31 AM »
Maybe I grew up under different circumstances than yourself. Before I left home, I lived as essentially "slave" labor for our father on the farm! Trust me, what it taught me was a valuable work ethic, and the value of a dollar earned. I carried such lesson through my entire adult life and it hasn't been any hardship that I can see.

Consenting behavior among adults implies adults, not children of those adults. If a 12 year old child is forced to work for and by Mom and Pop, that is a whole different ball of wax than a 45 year old being forced to work for and by 70 year old Uncle Fred.

If it is okay to enslave soldiers, then it ought to be equally okay to enslave politicians, judges, cops, teachers, and pot hole fillers.


EVERY American owes this country a debt of gratitude (IMHO).

Agreed. And I extend that debt of gratitude to every Frenchman, Englishman, Belgian, Greek, and Luxembourger. Heck, even the Germans, Italians, and Japanese owe the USA for not living in a police state. That being said, a debt of gratitude does not justify human bondage. If a child born here, in gratitude for blood spilled on their behalf, owes the country military service, does not the French president?

So I guess if someone is under the age of 18, in your opinions on this, they can be slave labor then?

Dude, that hole you're digging is getting deeper with every post you make on this subject! Just saying. You might want to stop while you're ahead. Just a suggestion.

Not really. What he's saying -- on its face -- seems pretty straight forward, to me, but maybe I'm just understanding wrong. :thinker:

He's saying it's not considered slavery if a parent asks a child do chores around the house. It's not slavery if a person was made to work around the farm (to an extent). In both cases, the child is being asked to do it for free simply because the parent can tell them to, within reason (IE: no working from dawn to dusk with no allowances for school, food, or rest), because the child is helping offset the cost of their food, lodging, education, and time invested in parenting, since the child can't reasonably be expected to go out into the world and fend for themselves at this point. However, a grown adult telling another adult to do something in the same manner becomes slavery because the subservient adult has the civil liberty to not be dependent on another adult in the same manner, and they CAN leave if they choose whenever they wanted to.

Following that line of reasoning, he's taking an issue with TXAZ's notion that "everyone owes the country a debt of gratitude".

If a debt of gratitude -- by nature of being a DEBT, that must be paid off -- exists, then it stands to his reasoning that no one in the land of the free is truly free because TXAZ's logic holds that we, every man, woman, and child, are all actually are born into servitude whether we want to be or not even if we couldn't choose to be born wit it, and that the idea of a "debt of gratitude" makes the US into an Imperium of Man. Seems he's also likening conscription -- the draft -- to a form of slavery, because slavery is defined as being forced to work or do something against your will with no recourse because your master is more powerful than you and has the martial ability to force you to do what you don't want on pain of imprisonment, injury, or death.

Finally -- and I'm just spitballing here -- he seems to be calling out TXAZ's notion as being directly unconstitutional because the very idea of it goes against the 13th amendment. How can we owe a debt if we have not committed a crime, other than the happenstance of being born here?

.....................Either that, or he could be criticizing the fact that the united states literally freely allows slavery -- despite having supposedly fought a civil war over the abolition of slavery -- in the truest and rawest sense the moment someone becomes convicted of a crime. I believe he could be referencing the debate over the fact that the US prison system in some regions does nothing more than coerce inmates into long, hard hours of work for essentially no tangible benefit, then trying to sanitize and rationalize it as being politically correct by labeling it as "behavioral reform"; they're not working to earn their own keep or learn the error of their ways, they're working to earn money for the state.

IDK man, it's whatever.  :P

Offline Tango

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2019, 09:55:49 AM »

That being said, I am 72 years old and a Viet Nam disable vet. Now, does that make a difference in the validity of the Thirteenth Amendment?

I've not questioned the validity/intent of the Constitution or any Amendment - was curious to know the background of the troll that seems to be the only one on his side of an opinion and possibly exploring the reasoning that causes goofy argumentative thinking - did you "do" drugs while in VN, do you "do" drugs now ? (are you now a Bartender from the upper east coast ?)

perhaps you'd care to expand on your VN assignment - mos and actual duty assignments, unit(s), time period, citations, rank - you know, all the stuff inquiring minds like to know.....
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Offline Skolnick

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Re: Mandatory Military Service?
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2019, 10:15:15 AM »
perhaps you'd care to expand on your VN assignment - mos and actual duty assignments, unit(s), time period, citations, rank - you know, all the stuff inquiring minds like to know.....

USAF -- E4 -- 1964-1968 (three years, nine months, and 14 days)

Crew chief on C-130 cargo planes. Texas (naturally), Dover Delaware, Travis AFB, Okinawa, and two one-day trips to Viet Nam (one day in Pleiku, one day in Cam Ranh).

Hearing loss from the airplanes is the disability.

No drugs -- ever.

PS: I was never subject to the draft. I enlisted when I was 17 and my draft lottery number would have been 240 (way too high for selection)

PPS: I would have made more rank in the Army.

and possibly exploring the reasoning that causes goofy argumentative thinking

As in, absolute opposition to human bondage = goofy argumentative thinking?