Author Topic: How many practice double tabs?  (Read 3212 times)

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Offline busykngt

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How many practice double tabs?
« on: October 10, 2018, 05:08:40 PM »
I’m a pretty big believer in muscle memory, habits (both good & bad) and how you practice will come home to roost should you ever find yourself in a life and death defensive shooting.

I know we’re all taught to “shoot to end the threat” {only}.  And observations at shooting ranges provides ample opportunity to see many shooters take a stand, fire a round, pause to check, take another shot, pause again to check and so on - NOT a very realistic defensive shooting practice, IMHO. 

Over the years, I’ve been strongly influenced by a couple lines of thought.  The first had to do with carrying a 380ACP (not up for debate concerning the topic of this thread - a measure beyond my control).  And the second thought was how long the human body can stay active (threatening) after being shot - assuming no shot to the central nervous system (i.e., CNS kill shot). 

So I began to incorporate a reasonably fast second follow-up shot into my range practice routine with the little pocket gun.  A ‘double tap’ (for lack of a better term) to the center of mass.  A practice I still do, to this day even though a mouse gun is not usually my main EDC any longer.

Thoughts? Comments?  Anybody else practice an initial two shot (or more) defensive engagement?


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Offline AKM-47

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2018, 06:21:05 PM »
Sense I miss read the question I will redo

One or two in the chest

If body armor then 2 + 1


« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 07:20:09 PM by AKM-47 »

Online TXAZ

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2018, 06:41:49 PM »
Single and “multi-tap”. (Empty mag)
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Offline Alte Schule

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2018, 06:47:49 PM »
Mozambique Drill: The Mozambique Drill, also known as the Failure Drill or Failure to Stop drill, or informally, "two to the body, one to the head," is a close-quarters shooting technique that requires the shooter to fire twice into the torso of a target (known as a double tap to center of mass), and follow up with a more difficult head shot that, if properly placed, will instantly stop the target if the previous shots failed to do so
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Offline 308nato

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2018, 07:09:49 PM »
Mozambique Drill: The Mozambique Drill, also known as the Failure Drill or Failure to Stop drill, or informally, "two to the body, one to the head," is a close-quarters shooting technique that requires the shooter to fire twice into the torso of a target (known as a double tap to center of mass), and follow up with a more difficult head shot that, if properly placed, will instantly stop the target if the previous shots failed to do so



I practice this also and  a few other ways.
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Offline DCD327

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 08:21:10 PM »
Always did practice double taps,, even triples,, 2 + 1.

Very rare a handgun totally neutralizes the threat in one shot.
 
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Offline Shipwreck

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 09:12:42 PM »
I practice this periodically. Most ranges I shoot at only allow rapid fire in groups of 2.

I find that i can put the 2nd rapid fire shot closer to the bullseye (so, the 2 shots are closer together) when I do 1 handed doubletaps.

I do not usually do as well on the 2nd shot when using 2 hands. Weird.

Offline busykngt

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How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 02:24:56 AM »
I do not usually do as well on the 2nd shot when using 2 hands.
So that’s an interesting comment.  By “not do as well”, I presume you mean the second round strikes the target in a slightly different location?  (But still a “center of mass” hit, right?).  Ok, without getting into too morbid of a discussion, wouldn’t that scenario actually be an advantage?  I mean, you’re now talking about having created a second, separate wound channel in a soft organ tissue area of the body.

Again, I’m trying to look at this from a perspective of “stopping the threat” as quickly as possible.  From that perspective, I would think a ‘head’ shot would tend to be more debilitating than a ‘center of mass’ shot.  But we’re taught to aim for center of mass (presumably because a head shot offers a smaller target and is more difficult to hit).  If you watch the ASP guy’s video channel, you can see examples of shots that are fatal, but still leave the bad guy alive long enough to inflict damage to a defender (even up to, including death of the good guy).

Some folks may say I’m “over thinking” this, but I’m okay with that comment - this is the one crucial area I’d rather over think it, than under think it.
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Offline Gilgondorin

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 05:54:54 AM »
Although it's been a while since I read the book, IIRC Chris Bird, author of The Concealed Carry Manual, advocated for the Mozambique drill also, or at least something similar if not that specifically.

He said that double tap training was essentially a death trap particularly for uniformed policemen when they were initially programmed to squeeze twice and then holster, then were themselves taken out when the threat persisted.

Offline busykngt

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 07:26:11 AM »
...uniformed policemen when they were initially programmed to squeeze twice and then holster
Agreed.  Automatic re-holstering after two (or one, or three, or xx) shots wouldn’t strike me as a good training technique.   
Besides, I would question if that training was effective.  I think it’s ‘human nature’ to maintain your defensive apparatus at the ready until you could be sure the threat to your safety had ended.
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Offline Shipwreck

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 08:31:55 AM »
I do not usually do as well on the 2nd shot when using 2 hands.
So that’s an interesting comment.  By “not do as well”, I presume you mean the second round strikes the target in a slightly different location?  (But still a “center of mass” hit, right?).  Ok, without getting into too morbid of a discussion, wouldn’t that scenario actually be an advantage?  I mean, you’re now talking about having created a second, separate wound channel in a soft organ tissue area of the body.

Again, I’m trying to look at this from a perspective of “stopping the threat” as quickly as possible.  From that perspective, I would think a ‘head’ shot would tend to be more debilitating than a ‘center of mass’ shot.  But we’re taught to aim for center of mass (presumably because a head shot offers a smaller target and is more difficult to hit).  If you watch the ASP guy’s video channel, you can see examples of shots that are fatal, but still leave the bad guy alive long enough to inflict damage to a defender (even up to, including death of the good guy).

Some folks may say I’m “over thinking” this, but I’m okay with that comment - this is the one crucial area I’d rather over think it, than under think it.

Yes, the 2nd round either misses the target or is very low. It seems like my wrist pivots back to the aiming spot when I am just using 1 hand. I do practice 1 handed shooting a lot. If you are in a robbery situation, or something similar - you may be lucky to even get the gun up and out. So, I could see where you might shoot 1 handed if the target is not that far away.

Every once in a while, I practice doubletaps that way too.

Offline busykngt

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2018, 09:05:48 AM »
Ship, you make an excellent point about practicing one handed shooting.   I’ll admit, I personally, haven’t focused on that as much as I should have - something I’ll take some time to correct.  Yes, I mainly was focused on being caught up in a 7-Eleven or gas station type holdup (as opposed to a home invasion type scenario).  I’ve still got to believe that generally, two severe wound cavities is going to lead to a quicker incapacitation than just a single wound cavity.

I am certainly not arguing that shot placement trumps everything. As the old adage goes, one good solid hit surely trumps two *very fast* misses! 
As I’ve gotten older (just shy 65), the old ‘reaction times’ are noticeably not what they were when I was 25!  This has also caused me to re-evaluate under what conditions and how I would make a draw from a concealed carry condition.  Knowing you can’t expect success when someone has got the drop on you, I would most certainly have to seek cover or, at least, concealment before I’d attempt an intervention in such a holdup scenario. 
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Offline Shipwreck

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Re: How many practice double tabs?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2018, 10:35:24 AM »
I think a huge likely scenario is a parking lot robbery, or something similar.

In my town, 1 or 2 streest nearby (not a bad neighborhood) have had people robbed as they are walking down the street. Daytime and nigh time. I've seen stories about this on and off for the past 2 years or so. Someone comes up to them or drives by and stops, and robs the people.

I walk a lot due to my back, and I am not that too far from these areas - just a few blocks.

Plus, I already escaped a parking lot attempt once - someone years ago tried to get the gun case I had in my hand, when I was walking towards the gunstore to bring my Beretta in to try laser grips inside of the shop.

Plus, at Christmas time - there are tons of parking lot robberies in WalMart and mall parking lots.

In such a case, a self defense situation would likely have just 1 hand on the gun - as you are in a hurry to bring it up fast. So, I practice 1 or 2 mags this way - at every range trip. I also practice 1 handed DA shots - Where I shoot every round in double action - since I like DA/SA guns.

Obviously, I can't shoot as well at longer distances. But something like 90 or 95% of self defense shootings happen at 7 yards or less. I think most are even at 3 yards or less. 

Anyway - when that event happened to me almost a decade ago, it changed how I practice. I also got rid of that Keltec 32 I had on me at the time (since my carry gun, the Beretta, was in the case).