Author Topic: Stopping Power  (Read 1139 times)

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Online busykngt

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Stopping Power
« on: August 15, 2018, 11:34:16 AM »
Here’s yet another study - video released earlier this year - on firearm caliber verses “stopping power”.  It’s view is a little from the prepper perspective. 
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Offline Shipwreck

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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2018, 12:36:05 PM »
Great post!

Online dred

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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2018, 03:55:18 PM »
K ... so ...

What are the chances we can find a judge intetested in an actually scientific inquiry. I think we need a judge to sentence folks to become data points in a scientific inquiry. The study that was the foundation was anything but scientific. IMO, the conclusions have no more scientific basis for generalization than my opinions.

1700 is a big and impressive number of data points. But we cannot generalize from 1700 completely and entirely unique circumstances that produced this data.

If you aren't buying what I'm selling ..  would you rather take a 9mm round fired from 10 feet, 10 yards or 10 football fields away?  I'm pretty certain I know the answer but no discussion of basic qualifiction of data points is provided beyond head and torso hits only.   I know I'd rather get winged in the ear than shot square beyween the eyes. How were hits sorted?

I'll say, it sure tells the 9mm camp what they hope is true and accurate. I wonder if .357 shows most effective 'cause it is most likely carried by old peace officers that came up knowing they needed to be able to shoot.

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Offline Shipwreck

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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2018, 04:41:45 PM »
Yea, but other studies have said that something like 95% of self defense shootings happen at 7 yards or less. WIth over 1/2 at 3 yards or less....

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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2018, 05:20:17 PM »
I thought it was an interesting analysis, but the number of variables in shootings is massive. 
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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2018, 05:27:11 PM »
.
I don't read these studies (and didn't read/watch the one posted here) - I will continue to carry what I'm most comfortable carrying (until such time that someone comes out with something that would allow me to "win" in all situations)
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Online DCD327

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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2018, 07:57:11 PM »
These reports usually mean exactly nothing.
NONE of it matters if people cant hit what they are aiming at.
So in that perspective, it dont matter if you got a red ryder bb gun or a 155 howitzer.

A 22 lr between the eyes will kill sure as hell. So will a .45.

Fast is fine, but ACCURACY is EVERYTHING.  :th_thicon_idea:
Dont really matter with what.

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Offline Ochotona

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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2018, 08:44:11 AM »
I really don't understand .38 vs .357 Magnum. That's a reversal of what is expected.

I think the most valuable slide is the don't use a mouse gun slide. Hmmm... maybe I will be selling my North American Arms mini-revolver.
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Online busykngt

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Stopping Power
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2018, 12:18:36 PM »
Personally, I didn’t see anything really “profound” in his findings or at least the conclusions that were drawn.  Rifles (& shotguns) tend to achieve better results than handguns (well... duh...).  And larger caliber handguns tend to produce the desired results better than smaller calibers (again, no earth shattering news there). 

Personally, I don’t get overly sensitive to the mechanics of such “studies” (unless the data has been obviously cherry picked).  A lot of the raw data is typically missing details and even when it’s relatively complete, there’s still a great deal of subjective interpolation that takes place.  I generally accept whatever criterion the author tends to define in his study; I just mentally track how that may impact his results or the conclusions he draws.  There is no such thing as “the perfect study” or the perfect grading criteria. 
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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2018, 12:27:53 PM »
True, but there is always the know-it-all idiot that will tell ya that anything less than "x" caliber is wasting your time. The facts in the video are at least SOME facts. Of course, such a person will likely dismiss the facts as not being good enough. But it is still something better than a dumb comment  :P

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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2018, 12:54:48 PM »
Ship, that’s what actually motivated me to post the original video/study. 

I had just watched a series of videos by the guy who operates Thunder Ranch.  Most folks seem to have a great deal of respect for him.  But it’s obvious by his comments and presentation, he thinks the 380ACP is wholly inadequate as a self-defense caliber.  (He’s a 45ACP guy).

I carried a 380ACP for several years (due to job & dress code constraints) and I never felt I wouldn’t be able to defend my life with it.  Of course, I carried the best SD ammo available and always practiced double tap shots from the get go.  But that’s just ‘best practice’ IMO anyway. 
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Online TXAZ

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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2018, 01:01:52 PM »
True, but there is always the know-it-all idiot that will tell ya that anything less than "x" caliber is wasting your time.
Maybe that's because he's (she's?) a poor shot?
I'm guessing most of the frequent posters shoot closer to this: (Dom, I expect all of your's touch the X)



On the other hand, there are some well documented 'wet work' entities in the world that like the .22 because in their hands they're typically a "1-shot-immediate-kill".  I expect it has more to do with skill of the user than caliber.

I also expect there's a fair number of self proclaimed "experts" that couldn't drop a bad guy at 10 feet with Boomer and a full mag....
Like this guy, 1 hit at 4:30, no idea where the other shots went....


(maybe it was the blue tape on the target was confusing)
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Offline Domineaux

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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2018, 08:14:41 AM »
(Dom, I expect all of your's touch the X)

Nah, I prefer to spread the leaks out a bit. (That's my story and I'm sticking with it) ;)
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Stopping Power
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2018, 12:39:02 PM »
I missed a prime photo opportunity to make a great meme when I didn’t think to clandestinely snap a pic of the LTC target from the lady next to me.  This was a small CCW class several years ago and this lady attended with her husband.  Her husband shot ok; but nothing great (at least he was safe).  The instructor said something about my target and the fact he liked those that were easy to grade.  As I recall, I had one flyer keeping me from the max score.  Not sure I’d do as well today - after two cataract surgeries and one cornea transplant.  The husband made a comment about how I must practice a lot.  I said something about owning some land that did allow me to shoot some.

Meanwhile, I didn’t envy the instructor as he walked over to the lady’s target.  Her shots were quite literally “all over the place” (including a couple, not to be found anywhere on the target).  First sign to me was during the test, this lady struggling to reload at one point.  It was obvious she wasn’t very familiar with the pistol and certainly hadn’t practiced much.  The instructor finally counted enough holes in the paper to pass her!

Shame on her husband for not putting her through a beginning pistol class somewhere.  In the intervening years, I often found myself hoping that lady either got the training she desperately needed or had enough sense not to endanger innocent bystanders should the need to defend herself ever arise.
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Online TXAZ

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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2018, 03:14:46 PM »
I missed a prime photo opportunity to make a great meme when I didn’t think to clandestinely snap a pic of the LTC target from the lady next to me.  ...

Ditto.  The girl from Austin next to me had never shot before and stovepiped every shot, then swept me or the guy on the other side of her asking what was wrong with her new mouse gun.  At least 1/2 her shots didn't hit *her* target on the 15 yard portion.  (but did hit other targets). 
I hope she decided to take up something other than shooting.  That was one scary lady.
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Re: Stopping Power
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2018, 06:24:50 PM »
Yep...a mouse gun...
I know that’s *exactly* the type gun I’d want to use to take a shooting test! 

I’m not a firearms instructor and never had a desire to be one.  I was tasked with running a rifle (M-16) qualification range one time for some NG reservist that came in.  That kinda blind sided me but the Army had a book - a script to follow - that took ya step by step through the process.  And fortunately I had half dozen great NCO’s that kept me out of trouble. 

The experience I had at the CCW class got me to wondering and appreciate the difficulties the instructors have, being “caught between a rock and a hard place”.  By all rights, that lady next to  me shouldn’t have passed (my opinion only, of course).  She was basically, “unsafe” and to use TXAZ’s assessment, ‘scary’!  But I also know they paid the instructor ‘good money’ and with that, there’s the underlying expectation of getting your LTC at the end of the day.  I suppose the instructor did the best he could, under the circumstances.  I did hear him encourage both husband and wife to take a class and “practice more”. 

And IF Constitutional Carry ever passes in Texas (which I’m in favor of), I suppose that will make the licensing test a moot point to a large extent.

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