Author Topic: Follow Up  (Read 4261 times)

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Offline K-Texas

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Follow Up
« on: May 24, 2018, 11:03:42 PM »
To the range/handload report of a couple of weeks back. I've reported concerning the Everglades 124 gr. JHP Version 2 in that previous thread. We've been shooting that bullet for around 3 years now and originally purchased it from RMR. RMR had no qualms about telling buyers that the bullet was made by Montana Gold. But when they developed their own bullet as a multiple purpose bullet, it wasn't long after that they dropped the bullet made for them by MG.

As luck would have it, one of the many friends I've made by trying to help new reloaders learn, without them getting bombarded with BS, was using the same bullet because of my reports. He lives in the panhandle of FLA, and referred me to a company called Everglades to get my opinion about it being the same bullet as previously sold by RMR. They sure looked the same to me, so I ordered some and put them to the test with previously established data. The bullet is one accurate SOB.

So, maybe I'm just another Texan who likes to tell big tales! So, I'll get right down to the nitty gritty. With 9mm bullets at 124 grs. my powder of choice is Ramshot Silhouette. I'm not kidding anybody here, right? I have a relationship with Western Powder Co., but it involves no monetary gain on my end. To tell the truth, I worked up a load with True Blue that I typically reserve for accuracy loads, except that it is flat-out outstanding for short-barrell .357 Magnum loads. But that's another thread, or 2, probably 3. That particular load did something I've never seen in my 32 years of handloading, or in anything I've ever read by anyone else, and I'm jumping back to 9mm. I have a load where 10 rounds over the chronograph produced a Standard Deviation of ZERO! I didn't even know that my chrono, being a mini calculating computer could even show an SD of 0!

The thing here is that Silhouette is treated chemically to have very low flash. But before I had ever tried it I was using a couple of exceptional powders for higher velocity 124 gr. JHP handloads in 9mm. One is no longer available, but that could change, the other was Vihta Vuori 3N37. What I ended up finding  is that Silhouette, which was once sold and cancelled far too early by Winchester as WAP, was almost identical in velocity capability in relation to the pressure produced. I can NOT over-emphasize the importance of that relationship. Luckily for me, my design training has led to dealing with pressure in a number of different venues: Hydraulic, mechanical, electrical and sound pressure. I won't bore you with the different certifications I hold, but, pressure related to handloading and ammo in general was something I was studying well before I made my first handload in 1986.

I've also learned, like the old dog that I am, a few tricks. You won't read about them in load manuals, but they exist just the same, with reliable accuracy. So, if I seem to write about a 9mm load that seems to push the envelope, be assured that before such a load gets any print from me, it has been put to the test, except that I don't have the lab set-up of most component makers.

Damn, that was long winded, so I'll cut to the chase. With the Everglades 124 gr. JHP, and use the following handload data at your own risk. Neither I, nor Texas Gun Forum. com accept any liability, particularly if this data is not followed precisely. With 5.7 grs. of Silhouette under the Evergaldes 124 gr. JHP V2 with an OACL of 1.122"/28.5mm, the velocity I couldn't record last time out because of high wind, was tested today with a velocity of 1167 FPS by 10 rounds over the chronograph. That's the velocity, that for us, is the highest it can be without the copper jacket separating from the core.

What this means for us is a very accurate range load that can serve double-duty as a defense load. Last I checked, Everglades is running a sale for them at $99/K with free shipping. Try and do better on price or accuracy.

And yeah, I have higher velocity loads, even with 147 gr. JHPs like the Hornady XTP. You just ain't gonna find them anywhere at a price nearly as low. BTW, the Golden Saber project part 97 1/2 continues. I lengthened the loads without altering the powder charge, but yet again, there was jacket/core separation. And in this particular case, loading 124 gr. Golden Sabers as long as I have; well, as we like to say, this ain't my first rodeo. The good news is that typically, the separated jacket penetrates as deeply as the core. Not a bad thing at all from any reasonable standpoint of ballistic science. Just the same, I'm going to lower velocity until separation ceases, if I can. Remington's +P load is rated 1180 FPS, and for me, that dog won't hunt, either. If I get down close to 1200 FPS and they still separate, I ain't gonna worry about it past that point. We will shoot up our inventory, or I'll load them faster and forget to worry! I've already seen what happens on the slower end.

Feedback is most welcome. So far, I create threads that few respond to, but get pretty high numbers of viewers. And that's a good thing if it attracts folks to this forum. Otherwise, my time is as valuable to me as anyone's. I'll only generate this kind of info so long as I know for a fact that it's doing someone some good, and in that I mean people who are registered members.

Thanks for your patience and kind attention. Still wish I could post a pic of the recovered bullet in question. Nonetheless, I've mentioned how to test your own loads, handloaded or factory. Anyone needing any help at all, please post your questions, or if you feel uncomfortable doing that on the forum, just message me.  :icon_wink:
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 11:38:20 PM by K-Texas »
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Offline GasGuzzler

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2018, 03:28:45 AM »
Powder is hard to come by locally so I have none of the powders listed.  I bet I have eight powders that are at least compatible with 9X19.  I might just grab 500 of those bullets for myself. 

https://www.evergladesammo.com/bullets/9mm-124gr-jhp-rn-v2.html

BTW....I got five one-pound jugs of Winchester AutoComp on the cheap and need to either trade it or try it.  Any experience?  I load for 9X19 and .45 ACP (in pistols).

Offline K-Texas

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2018, 03:21:22 PM »
GG, from what I know, Hodgdon HS6 (a fine 9mm powder in its own right) has spawned at least 3 newer powders. The first was WAP. After a couple of years without it catching on to Winchester's satisfaction, they dropped it from their line. A fledgling Western Powder Co. at that time, acquired the rights to it and renamed it Ramshot Silhouette. It is very popular now and sees a lot of use in USPSA. Winchester would definitely like to do that one over after seeing Silhouette go on to great success. So, the 2nd HS6 offspring is Auto-Comp. It is great and widely used by USPSA shooters as well, but it has a very specific purpose that prevents it from being a good choice for defense loads. Winchester formulated it to give higher gas pressure at the muzzle to make compensators on race guns more effective. And as such, it has no flash suppressor in its chemistry. The #3 offspring is CFE Pistol which is chemically treated for low flash like Sihouette. A slightly different approach that they used are powder granules of differing sizes, but it is capable of higher velocity loads with low flash. HS6 is still popular among USPSA Major 9 competitors as well, but its flash can be to intense for self defense loads.

Flash, and how much you're willing to deal with is up to the individual handloader. I use nothing but spherical powders (ball-Type) these days. The last flake powders I used for 9mm were Power Pistol and Blue Dot. But when you shoot loads at night or at an indoor range, both of these flake powders produce intense fireballs out of the muzzle. And for those who want to make their own defense loads, regardless of caliber, I definitely recommend shooting your loads at night to know what to expect. Alliant has a flake powder that is chemically treated for low flash, and pretty much the low-flash version of Power Pistol. That would be BE-86.

Then powders like True Blue, AA#5 & #7 are all so dense and fine grained that they come by low flash naturally. True Blue is what I use for defense loads in .45 ACP and short barrel .357 Magnum loads where it really excels. #7 with the supersonic (around 1120 FPS at sea-level) 147 gr. JHP defense loads in 9mm and some magnum loads where less than MAX velocity is desired. #7 is capable of extremely good accuracy in .357 Magnum loads, but falls a bit short of #9, 4100 and Ramshot Enforcer in velocity. The latter 2 powders are identical, but sold under 2 different labels because Western did not own Accurate Powder Co. when 4100 was introduced.

And speaking of Western. they have recently added 2 new spherical powders. TCM, as can be assumed by its name, was made specifically for use with Armscor's .22 TCM cartridge. It does have application in others like the 10mm where a slower powder is wanted. 11FS is a new Magnum Revolver load propellant that is chemically treated to reduce flash in magnum cartridges. Since they are made by St. Marks in Florida, who make all the spherical handgun powders in the US, 11FS is very comparable to Alliant's first attempt with a spherical, 300-MP. All of Alliant's other pistol/shotgun powders are double-based flake types with a second exception that the new Sport Pistol is also spherical.

A couple of other newcomers worth mentioning come from Winchester. 572 is a high energy powder that essentially replaces W570 (also HS7) with lower powder charges achieving similar velocity. The other, that I look forward to trying is W244. It is similar to Alliant's Sport Pistol in terms of application, but more significantly, it is an updated version of W231, one of the most popular powders used by handloaders. W244 is cleaner burning and has copper fouling technology that appears to be the coming thing in cleaner burning powders like CFE Pistol.

There are plenty of powders that work well in 9mm. The thing here is that some are better than others where specific application like lower velocity Target loads, or USPSA Minor Power factor is the goal. HS6 and Blue Dot come from when I started handloading when they were the champions of high velocity in 9mm with the exception that Blue Dot is not stable enough for Major 9 loads while HS6 is. Getting a desired result comes through different and specific powder selection. Those that produce higher velocity will be slower in burn rate like HS6 and slower. Medium speed powders like the different versions of Unique to include Universal Clays and IMR Unequal to as fast burning as W231 are good choices for genaral use and target loads. Faster burners than W231 are common choices for loading minor power factor loads in 9mm. Some faster burning than I care to use personally. And the new W244, that IMO, is slightly faster burning than W231 is because of the newer formulation with things like copper fouling erasers and cleanliness increase its burn rate to slightly faster burning than W231. :icon_wink:
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Offline GasGuzzler

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2018, 04:33:30 AM »
My defense 9X19s are currently filled with Hornady OEM defense rounds.  My favorite .357 load is a whole bunch of AA2400 under a greasy chunk of lead (smokey load) so muzzle flash doesn't bother me.

I have CFE but no CFE-pistol.  I really need a new storage solution.  I thought an old school metal filing cabinet would be a great idea but I'm out of room and disorganized.

Offline K-Texas

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2018, 01:33:05 PM »
Yeah, if it's not for defense loads, flash is of little concern to me as well. I wish that Hornady would sell the Critical Duty bullets to handloaders.  :icon_wink:
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Offline TXAZ

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2018, 03:14:10 PM »
Yeah, if it's not for defense loads, flash is of little concern to me as well. I wish that Hornady would sell the Critical Duty bullets to handloaders.  :icon_wink:
Hornady has a winner of a product, 2 reasons I might expect they won't sell just the round (which is supposed to inflict maximum damage to an attacker).
First, they probably make more money selling the complete round.
Second, if a handloader under or over charges a round, uses in a life or death defensive action and it doesn't stop the threat, there may be some liability there if the round failed to properly expands or over expands.
.

Offline K-Texas

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2018, 05:15:13 PM »
Yeah, if it's not for defense loads, flash is of little concern to me as well. I wish that Hornady would sell the Critical Duty bullets to handloaders.  :icon_wink:
Hornady has a winner of a product, 2 reasons I might expect they won't sell just the round (which is supposed to inflict maximum damage to an attacker).
First, they probably make more money selling the complete round.
Second, if a handloader under or over charges a round, uses in a life or death defensive action and it doesn't stop the threat, there may be some liability there if the round failed to properly expands or over expands.

I suspect that if Hornady had any such concerns it would more likely be in losing Critical Duty ammo sales. Some of the smaller "boutique" ammo-makers already use the XTP, so there would almost certainly be immediate competition against Hornady while using the Critical Duty bullets. Part of that could be prevented by offering handloaders bullet weights not used in their factory loads. I would want one at 147 grs. in 9mm.

With any specialized bullet, Hornady would likely post handload data at their site since their next load manual is likely to be years away since their last one is only a couple of years old.

I can not over-stress the importance of testing for penetration and expansion. And if you guys read the 2 articles by Charles Schwartz that preceded my last at http://blog.westernpowders.com/ With over 800 direct comparisons of firing into calibrated 10% ballistic ordnance gel, and firing the same load into water, there's a better than 95% chance that his calculation will give the exact depth of penetration in gel. Not only is gel kind of expensive, it's also inconvenient. In some cases I have even seen testers trying to fire multiple rounds into the same gel block. Not a very good idea, IMO. Charles furnished me with a copy of his software program that does the calculations. It also provides some very important statistics like P[I/H] which is probability of incapacitation per hit within a 30 second time frame. Being a computer program, it will take a lot of hits before 100% is achieved, and the number of rounds would probably require more time than 30 seconds. But, with a good defense load, regardless of who makes it, you should be over 99% with the 4th round. In my case, I'm a little more interested in the percentage after 3 shots when comparing different loads, but even then you should be over 98%. Another very vital parameter for me, and I apologize for writing the word instead of using the triangular symbol for Delta, but the value for Delta E15 is the amount of energy expended within the first 1 - 15 centimeters of the wound cavity. And in grams and ounces, there is also data for wound volume.

Any load I build and call a defense load gets tested thoroughly before I even mention it to others. While the Critical Duty bullet is a good one, it's not the only good one. And from the actual specs and tests by others, it's mighty hard to beat the Gold Dot at any given weight, excepting that as I mention in my article, the limit for the 147 gr. Gold Dot has been right at 1100 FPS in my tests while the 147 gr. XTP will stay together up to the 1154 FPS I have tested them at. In fact, if you read Charles's more recent of the 2 articles, he used Hornady factory loaded XTPs for comparison. Unfortunately, the 230 gr. XTP only comes in a +P version, so it's easy to understand how it outperforms the very sub-sonic 147 gr. XTP 9mm load. That is not the case with my 147 gr. XTP load in 9mm as it is super-sonic at 1154 and outperforms the 230 gr. +P XTP in .45 ACP

As far as the Gold Dot, it's not the only example of a major ammo company selling their premium defense bullet to handloaders, Remington has been doing it for years now. Unfortunately, the bonded upgrade version of the Golden Saber didn't fair so well and now they've introduced the "Black Belt" version that is somewhat exotic. As far as I know, only the .45 ACP version is being sold in factory ammo loads. It makes me wonder if they're having greater difficulty with the 9mm version, and as yet, I haven't heard a weight spec for the 9mm bullet. Simply loading a good JHP to a specific velocity and firing over a chrono only tells you what you can expect impact velocity and momentum to be. Excepting of course that Power Factor is simply bullet weight x velocity / 1000.

Let me close with this. If any of you guys want these specs for a handload you've developed, Charles explains the inexpensive apparatus that he uses. Because I've been using them so long I continue to use 1-gallon water jugs while Charles is aware of that. When we've ran the data for either method the results are close enough to be moot. So, if you want to use my method, line up 5 jugs with their handles to the rear and pointing in the same direction. Set the first jug to the same distance you chrono at, and between the skyscreens. If your bullet goes completely through 4 jugs, it's questionable. If it goes through all 5, I certainly wouldn't use it. I have put some JHPs to the test after having their manufacturer state that they can be used for defense only to find that they don't expand and over-penetrate. One specific example I can cite, and it's certainly not the only one, is the Nosler 124 gr. JHP in 9mm. It is an extremely accurate bullet in 9mm, but it doesn't expand. In reviews I've read at Midway, guys have stated that it needs .357 SIG velocity to make it expand. So, if you run the test, you can give me the average diameter from the greatest expanded petals of the recovered bullet to the smallest dia. between the petals, an average of 6 altogether. Then list its recovered weight and I'll be glad to run it through the program and list the most vital stats. Factory load or handload, doesn't matter. :icon_wink:
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Offline GasGuzzler

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2018, 07:25:01 PM »
Yeah, if it's not for defense loads, flash is of little concern to me as well. I wish that Hornady would sell the Critical Duty bullets to handloaders.  :icon_wink:
Hornady has a winner of a product, 2 reasons I might expect they won't sell just the round (which is supposed to inflict maximum damage to an attacker).
First, they probably make more money selling the complete round.
Second, if a handloader under or over charges a round, uses in a life or death defensive action and it doesn't stop the threat, there may be some liability there if the round failed to properly expands or over expands.

I suspect that if Hornady had any such concerns it would more likely be in losing Critical Duty ammo sales. Some of the smaller "boutique" ammo-makers already use the XTP, so there would almost certainly be immediate competition against Hornady while using the Critical Duty bullets. Part of that could be prevented by offering handloaders bullet weights not used in their factory loads. I would want one at 147 grs. in 9mm.

With any specialized bullet, Hornady would likely post handload data at their site since their next load manual is likely to be years away since their last one is only a couple of years old.

I would tend to ASSume the former not the latter.  They just make more money using it themselves or possibly selling it to other "OEM" builders.

Offline K-Texas

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2018, 09:20:36 PM »
Yeah, if it's not for defense loads, flash is of little concern to me as well. I wish that Hornady would sell the Critical Duty bullets to handloaders.  :icon_wink:
Hornady has a winner of a product, 2 reasons I might expect they won't sell just the round (which is supposed to inflict maximum damage to an attacker).
First, they probably make more money selling the complete round.
Second, if a handloader under or over charges a round, uses in a life or death defensive action and it doesn't stop the threat, there may be some liability there if the round failed to properly expands or over expands.

I suspect that if Hornady had any such concerns it would more likely be in losing Critical Duty ammo sales. Some of the smaller "boutique" ammo-makers already use the XTP, so there would almost certainly be immediate competition against Hornady while using the Critical Duty bullets. Part of that could be prevented by offering handloaders bullet weights not used in their factory loads. I would want one at 147 grs. in 9mm.

With any specialized bullet, Hornady would likely post handload data at their site since their next load manual is likely to be years away since their last one is only a couple of years old.

I would tend to ASSume the former not the latter.  They just make more money using it themselves or possibly selling it to other "OEM" builders.

Unfortunately, judging from this website. handloading expertise seems to be lacking. I have been totally underwhelmed in any sense of the word, knowledge.

I'm not sure that I really understand the logic of your statements. Sales to handloaders would far exceed sales to Double-Tap, Underwoods or Buffalo Bore. And judging from one of your previous posts about not using your chronograph, I really don't understand what criteria you use in evaluating handgun defense loads. I'd be more than glad to have you enlighten me beyond how many powders you have that seem suitable for loading 9mm.

I was reviewing load data from a technical standpoint for several years before I made my first handload in .41 Magnum in 1986. When I started handloading 9mm, few bothered while you could buy cheap at $5/50. Starting out with .41 Magnum was for several reasons: availability, selection on top of it being expensive where I could find it. 9mm was quite a lot different because I wanted to handload better than factory ammo, while SAAMI spec for pressure then was 35,700 CUP. In terms of PSI, that's very close to today's limit for +P at 38,500 PSI, while many American ammo-makers are a good part of SAAMI, who got way over concerned with liability because of inferior pistols still floating around.

No single handgun rounds has had more safety issues in my lifetime than the .40 S&W that shares the same MAP as current 9 x 19mm @ 35,000 PSI. The .357 SIG is nothing more than the .40 S&W, bottlenecked to take 9mm bullets. Supposedly, the case in the web area was strengthened, so SAAMI allowed a MAP of 40,000 PST for the .357 SIG. After all, it is an American design. I do however, have professional friends within the firearms industry. One of them that I know to be absolutely solid told me a few years back, that in testing for case failure, it took over 100,000 PSI to blow the case-head of a 9mm cartridge.

If we're here to play games, I won't be around long. Been there, done that. But let me refresh your memory from my last post. The evidence is clearly shown in the articles I referenced at the Western website. Ballistically, my 147 gr. XTP load in 9mm @ 1154 is superior to the Hornady.45 ACP 230 gr. XTP +P load at 950 FPS. The uninformed would swear that I'm lying, but reality always seems to trump fantasy. In my experience in trying to educate others, I can tell you that almost none of them have a clue as to what sectional density is. Well, it's the ratio of mass to diameter. A 9mm bullet at 147 grs. has a higher sectional density than a 180 gr. .400" bullet or a 230 gr. bullet of .451" caliber. More often than not. sectional density is a prime factor in penetration.

Here's why I advocate the 147 gr. 9mm at higher velocity. Speaking with complete honesty, a 230 gr. XTP +P load rated 950 PS is one hell of a load. Check the guys at the range, mostly shooting the cheap stuff with a 230 gr. FMJ at 850 FPS and you'll find that many of them are at the top of their recoil tolerance. So let's get down to the nut-cuttin'. That 230 gr. XTP +P load at 950 FPS creates a power factor of 218.5. My 147 gr. 9mm XTP load at 1154 FPS is superior in terms of real ballistic science. It gives a PF of 169. Does that get through the fog? Which round could you fire the most rounds of in an equal time frame?

I mean geez, if this is the kindergarten ammuntion forum, I have far better things to do!  :icon_wink:
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Offline TXAZ

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2018, 10:47:43 AM »

Unfortunately, judging from this website. handloading expertise seems to be lacking. I have been totally underwhelmed in any sense of the word, knowledge.
...

I mean geez, if this is the kindergarten ammuntion forum, I have far better things to do!  :icon_wink:

Under that criteria,  this is the kindergarten ammunition class, maybe even pre-school. I'd rather get out and shoot Boomer or Blaster than measure out one half, and I think most of the active participants would rather shoot than reload, and that is likely a common thought here.

There are a fair number of heavy-duty-get-down-in-the-micrograins-details reloading sites, but that's not really us.

(On the other hand, if you want to do some serious blasting or solving the worlds gun dilemmas, or discussing the latest political gun-related boners, fire away!)
.

Offline K-Texas

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2018, 06:07:50 PM »

Unfortunately, judging from this website. handloading expertise seems to be lacking. I have been totally underwhelmed in any sense of the word, knowledge.
...

I mean geez, if this is the kindergarten ammuntion forum, I have far better things to do!  :icon_wink:

Under that criteria,  this is the kindergarten ammunition class, maybe even pre-school. I'd rather get out and shoot Boomer or Blaster than measure out one half, and I think most of the active participants would rather shoot than reload, and that is likely a common thought here.

There are a fair number of heavy-duty-get-down-in-the-micrograins-details reloading sites, but that's not really us.

(On the other hand, if you want to do some serious blasting or solving the worlds gun dilemmas, or discussing the latest political gun-related boners, fire away!)

Well, let's get objective. Before I started this particular post I counted 4373 members. But in my recent participation, I see a small sewing circle of about 25 members. HELLO! Texas is getting close to 30,000,000 in population while the Texas Gun Forum has 4373 registered members?

Look, I had my 15 minutes of fame a long time ago, like 30 years ago. I honestly feel sad for those who believe their own self-importance is greater than the growth of a gun forum, particularly when Texas gets mentioned.

So, what is a TXAZ, a guy lost in New Mexico and can't find his way home to either Texas or Arizona?

I'm here for one purpose and one purpose alone: to teach. From what I understand from the words beneath your avatar, you're a 50 BMG guy. So, Mr. BMG Guy, just how many rounds of .50 caliber do you shoot annually, since you devaluate the importance of handloading on this forum.

Let's take it a step farther from another thread about a guy missing a target 7 times at 2.whatever miles and hits the nearly 4.5' target with the 8th round. Hoo-F'ing-ray. Many of us that only claim Texas as our own, know a little story about a Mr. Dixon at Adobe Walls who saved the lives of those around him with an antiquated cartridge where many of today's handgun bullets have a better ballistic coefficient.

I also noticed your use of the term Transonic. If you had to explain the precise meaning, well, I doubt that you could find it with a google search. When a bullet falls in velocity from super-sonic it goes sub-sonic. The term transonic describes acceleration from sub-sonic to super-sonic. And since it's all based on the speed of sound, or Mach 1 at sea-level, could you even calculate that velocity for where you're sitting right now?

I don't know who pays the bills around here, but they must like it. Since these threads go out across the interweb, while I know the numbers of viewers that have read the last 3 posts of mine in this sub-forum alone, and a path to the last article I wrote for Western Powders. I'm kinda thinkin' you might have diaper rash. Such people usually cause me concern because we have no idea about how they really feel about this republic, and who knows how in the hell they actually vote! :icon_wink:
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Offline Psyc

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2018, 11:32:28 PM »
Very interesting reply from you Mr. K-Texas.
Someone confirms your guess Texas Gun Forum is not a heavy duty reloading forum.
You respond irrationally by launching ad hominem attacks against them.
Are you having a bad day?

Offline K-Texas

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2018, 04:08:19 PM »
Very interesting reply from you Mr. K-Texas.
Someone confirms your guess Texas Gun Forum is not a heavy duty reloading forum.
You respond irrationally by launching ad hominem attacks against them.
Are you having a bad day?

Did it appear that I needed someone to point out the obvious after pointing it out myself? Several times? Are you somehow qualified to cast aspersions yourself Dr. Psyc?

I have been trying to attract others to become members since these posts go out on the web. I don't know how many new members have been gained, but I do know that the potential is there judging from the number of viewers.

Since this is the AMMO section, I've also tried to enlighten shooters that there is a reliable method for testing their ammo, specifying Factory Ammo or Handloads. In the past, that gas garnered some appreciation and attracted new folks.

The point being that guns are great no matter how you view them from tools to near works of art, in some cases. Nonetheless, they are the launching platform because it's the ammo that does the work!

So, apologies to anyone's feathers I may have ruffled. :icon_wink:
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 07:25:48 PM by K-Texas »
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The LORD is my Shepherd; I shall not want . . .

Anything that can be corrupted by man; will be corrupted!

Offline Tango

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2018, 05:23:57 PM »
.
hmmmmm - perhaps this would be a good time to offer up some appropriate reading material (now available on EBay - pass it on when finished)

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Offline K-Texas

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2018, 05:34:50 PM »
I worked for an Industrial Engineer who was the quintessential Dale Carnegie student, LOL! Really never did much for him. Nonetheless, I do know some things about diplomacy. I also happen to have high enough reading comprehension skills to catch underlying meanings in what some post, in their diplomatic way of course!

Maybe what I lack most is patience at 61 years now. The knowledge that I do have was amassed in almost 40 years of shooting and 32 in handloading and coming into it with a very technical background as far as a designer and engineering tech. I will try to be more patient in the future.  :icon_wink:
Our Father, who ART in Heaven . . . 
The LORD is my Shepherd; I shall not want . . .

Anything that can be corrupted by man; will be corrupted!

Offline TXAZ

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2018, 07:15:25 PM »
Very interesting reply from you Mr. K-Texas.
Someone confirms your guess Texas Gun Forum is not a heavy duty reloading forum.
You respond irrationally by launching ad hominem attacks against them.
Are you having a bad day?

Very accurately and succinctly stated Psyc, thanks.
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Offline K-Texas

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2018, 08:51:43 PM »
I stated in one of these recent threads/posts that I would run an analysis for those who collect the needed data, and, of course, you'll need to chronograph the load at the same distance that you set the first water jug or water-filled baggie. In Charles' method, he placed his chrono right before the first baggie. I chrono everything at 12' from the muzzle to the center of the skyscreens and I chrono 10 rounds at a time in most cases. Then I just set my first jug at 12' from the muzzle. I haven't killed a chrono yet while I'm on my 3rd. Hopefully, it will never happen!

I am glad to honor that commitment so long as you contact me at TexasCHL Forum. I won't be writing any more threads or posts here, on ammo or handloading.

Thanks to you good people who read my article. I can tell you that the folks up at Western Powder Co. appreciate it as well! :icon_wink:
Our Father, who ART in Heaven . . . 
The LORD is my Shepherd; I shall not want . . .

Anything that can be corrupted by man; will be corrupted!

Offline TXAZ

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2018, 08:59:23 PM »
Well I trust everyone had a safe and fulfilling Memorial Day weekend.  I came back and didn't realize it was already July 4th with fireworks!

« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 06:54:16 AM by TXAZ »
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Offline Psyc

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2018, 09:07:11 PM »
I trust everyone will get a good nights sleep and wake up fresh with a positive attitude in the morning.


Offline Domineaux

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Re: Follow Up
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2018, 10:32:37 PM »
Both of you need to just drop the passive (and not so passive) aggressive shade at each other.
No idea if you know each other from somewhere, and are carrying animosity over or what, but the crap needs to be left out.

K-Texas, I'm sure many appreciate the depth of reloading information you are sharing, and it is quite welcome even if not many hard core reloaders respond.

TXAZ, you are better than this, and should be welcoming to information that is being shared. If you don't care about it, there is really no need to say anything negative about it being posted.
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