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Offline K-Texas

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Handload and Range Report
« on: May 12, 2018, 05:16:09 PM »
Hey guys! Trying to figure out how to post pics.

Yesterday, here in Brown County, the high temp was 90 degrees (5/11/18). The bigger issue that I had been watching for most of the week prior was the forecast wind speed. Turned out to be 15 - 20 with gusts to 30 MPH. Our range is a little ways out of town in an open area, so the wind was as bad as forecast. What this means is that it was too windy to set up the chrono.

Some of my focus here is to direct you to a very good and economically priced 124 gr. JHP in 9mm sold by Everglades and made for them by Montana Gold. This bullet was once sold by RMR who dropped it after developing their own 124 gr. JHP, also made by them. I tried their "In-House" bullet and it was a disappointment. Part of its problem is that it is designed to work in .357 SIG also and most of its short ogive is near the bullet nose, thereby giving the bullet a rather long shank. This is what I'm referring to when you see me use the term, "Bulbous." Consequently, when loaded in 9 x 19mm, a very short OACL has to be used. Upon anyone's request I'll explain why this is NOT a good thing. For best accuracy, I've always loaded as long as possible for a pistols specific chamber. Over recent years we've seen some great new pistols where, unfortunately, the manufacturer has shortened the barrels chamber to reduce 'bullet-jump" into the barrel's leade (where rifling begins). BTW for you Glock fans, that and a crown on the muzzle are the changes they used for what they're calling "Marksman" barrels for their Gen V 9 x 19mm pistols.

Moving on, a fella I helped mentor when he started handloading, has become a great friend and if he's not sure about me knowing about a new product, or about a great buy on components I get an email from him. He lives in Florida and had bought a good many products from Evergladesin the past. He had me look to see if the bullet they were selling was the same that RMR once sold. As close as I could tell it was and an order was placed where that was confirmed. If you sign up for their email alerts, they sometimes have some great deals on this bullet, particularly at 1K or more. Sometimes bringing the price/1000 down to $100 or less, or sometimes they'll have specials where they pay for shipping.

This bullet has been very accurate for us. By us, I mean my shooting partner and me. Shooting Partner is a term I prefer over X or former Brother-In-Law, LOL! This year marks a quarter century since I began instructing him in shooting and for the past 5 years or more, in handloading. Before then I pretty much made all of our ammo which kind of changed when we started shooting 5.56mm NATO loads in AR 15s. Maybe a bit longer because our addition into AR shooting and handloading was a direct result of the best load to date on the battlefield as originally proposed by Chris Kyle. It used the SIERRA 77 gr. HPBT MK, or Matchking except that it has a cannelure which you won't see advertised by SIERRA. Hornady does the same except that their bullet is 75 grs. These bullets are often referred to as "Open Tip Match" bullets. Just recently, Hornady is loading and selling in factory loads or as a component bullet, one of their latest tech ELD "Match" bullets with their specially designed polymer tip for several worthy reasons. They also introduced an even heavier bullet for the .224 Valkyrie that can also be used in 5.56mm NATO loads if your AR has a barrel with a 1 in 7" twist rate. Ours are 1 in 8" which is great for bullets from 55 - 80 grains. The Hornady 75 gr. BTHP Match with cannelure is what we use mostly these days. It can be bought as the LEO Tap II or NATO Match which meets the specs of the Mk 262 Mod 0 loads. I'll help there as needed. The important thing to remember is that .223 REM is loaded at a lower pressure of 55,000 PSI whereas 5.56mm NATO is spec'd at 62,350 PSI by CIP in Europe. That's the reason for the WARNING not to load 5.56mm NATO in any Rifle that isn't spec'd 5.56mm NATO. Pardon my side-tracking! For data, the only true 5.56mm NATO data that I'm aware of comes from Western Powder Co. and 3 different powders will achieve 2750 FPS from a 16" barrel, same as the TAP II while the Mk 262 Mod ) requires a minimum velocity of 2700 FPS at the muzzle to perform as designed out to 300 yards. It has changed a lot of opinions in the military community and was first tested by special ops units.

Back to the 9mm, we once used the older Remington 124 gr. JHP when it was sold in bulk at great prices. Politics of the last decade screwed that deal up. Same with the 124 gr. Golden Saber except that we still have some and they are available on occasion. Unfortunately, they are not the low-cost option they once were. The 124 gr. JHP was our go-to range load for many years, and I loaded the Golden Sabers for carry. The great thing there was that the older 124 is very suitable for defense use when loaded above 1200 FPS (maybe +P depending on the powder and OACL used). It is a deep penetrator that won't expand as well at factory load velocity.

The Everglades 124 gr. JHP has replaced the old Remmy for us, and in a pinch could serve for defense with one caveat: pushed too fast and the jacket separates from the core. I load these bullets to 1.122"/28.5mm OACL. Only recently did I begin to load them slower in hopes of maintaining jacket integrity. But on that score I will say this, and in checking with Charles Schwartz, the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection, so long as the jacket penetrates to the same depth as the core if a bullet separates, you actually get 2 different wound cavities which is not necessarily a bad thing.

I developed one load with Ramshot Silhouette that proved to be exceptionally accurate, and exceptionally uniform with a Standard Deviation of 3 FPS for 10 rounds over the chrono. Let me tell you something that will some times be contradicted. Some people believe that very low standard deviation does not necessarily mean best accuracy. Unfortunately, they're incorrect, have little experience in making defense or even hunting loads and more than likely, they didn't put this to the test in a Ransom Rest to delete the Human factor. To cover the paramount point, if you're carrying a 9 x 19mm pistol with 18 or 19 round capacity give or take a few. The closer one bullet in the mag comes to producing the same result as another, you have 2 loads that can be counted on to give the nearest thing to identical performance. So, over 10 rounds in my tests, all ten rounds deviate by only 3 FPS. If you want to put the pistols entire capacity over the chrono you'll know exactly what to expect at crunch time. This is something rarely experienced with factory ammo, and one of several reasons why I choose to load and carry my own defense loads.

Now, our accuracy load with 5.8 grs. of Silhouette chronographed 1179 FPS last time I checked, and I prefer CCI500 primers in many cases while I have shot the same load with WSPs that weren't as low in standard deviation, nor quite as accurate. They also separate in my water jug tests. I've been reluctant to lower the charge because of the exceptional stats.

Well, I finally did even if it occurred somewhat accidentally! I load semi-progressively (being a control freak!) on a LEE Classic Turret that I have adapted to my method. For powder charging I use my old and well trusted RCBS Uniflow with their case-activated powder drop system. Only the one powder die is needed because the expanders are made for caliber and are very easy to change out. I won't kid you: going this route is a good bit more expensive than using a LEE Powder measure. I've just never found one I liked or depended on. So, recently I added the Micrometer stem for powder charge adjustment. I'll need to load a good many more rounds to be 110% certain, but so far 2 ticks on the Mic stem = .1 gr. of Silhouette which I load more than anything else in 9mm. Some loads get AA #7, usually 147 gr. JHPs, and sometimes True Blue when it absolutely, positively must be accurate! True Blue is also my choice for .45 ACP JHP defense loads. I do not and never have loaded FMJ and very few plated bullets. I've never seen a logical reason to do so when a good cast lead bullet would do all the same things just as well. I've never had any problems loading or shooting cast bullets, and no, I don't have any pistols with polygonal rifling. However, things have changed for the better with Poly-Coated lead bullets and they're still less expensive than plated while eliminating many of the problems some have had using cast bullets uncoated, because that's the only difference. A polymer coating is applied over the cast bullet many companies were already making. Some have decided to delete the lube groove which doesn't make much difference to me. If I have one thing to say on this subject it's this: When a poly-coated bullet keeps the lube groove, you are somewhat reducing the bearing surface of the bullet, i.e. friction. In practical terms, I really don't think it matters much.

Okay, back to the Everglades 124 gr. JHP. I thought I had my powder measure set for 5.8 grs. on my first attempt using the Mic stem. Turned out that the charges actually weighed 5.7 grs. and something I was already considering. Now that I have the Mic stem figured out, I know exactly how to set the Mic for the specific charges recorded as I make them. I should also point out that the RCBS charging system will add weight in the turret. I'm not even interested in putting it to the test to see how many rounds I can make before the press's plastic parts for auto-indexing wear out. I've found that I can load faster by manually indexing the turret on my Classic Turret press as you don't have to completely lower the handle to make the turret revolve to the next station. Plus, I can still tell by feel exactly what's going on at each die station. I am definitely a quality over quantity type handloader, and since I can hold OACL variations of +/- .001" because of the press's added bonus of having Top-Dead-Center, I'm going as fast as I'll probably ever want to. If you run a red or blue progressive, many of you know that this can be somewhat controlled better by the use of a micrometer seating die. Something I don't have to use, even when loading rifle cartridges.

Because I couldn't set up the chrono yesterday, I'll add velocity after the next time we shoot if possible. Gussing I'd say they are around 1150 FPS. One thing I'm not is a computer geek. I'm not even a patient computer user! Hopefully the pictures will load because the Everglades 124 gr. JHP performed exceptionally well considering its price and what it's really made to do. But as far as a indoor defense load where you don't want an FBI approved Super-Duper load penetrating through walls and such, I wouldn't have any problem using this load inside the home. I took the pics along with a civil engineering scale I've used since 1981 for perspective.

The truth is, my current defense load is the 147 gr. Gold Dot that chronographs 1090 FPS from the 4.56" barrel of my SARGUN 9. A pistol I pretty much bought for testing such loads, even supersonic to 1150 FPS depending on the bullet. That you can read about at http://blog.westernpowders.com/  The editor, Rob Behr said it would go up yesterday. well, he didn't quite make it. Maybe Monday and it follows 2 excellent articles by Charles Schwartz whom I somewhat collaborated with for my article using the stats from his formula for stopping percentage by number of rounds fired and some pretty interesting factoids besides, some of them like Momentum I use for everything I talk or write about in terms of defense loads. Look closely at the predictions of 3 of my 4 loads above 1000 FPS and compare the results to the 230 gr. Hornady XTP +P load used by Charles in his article. :icon_wink:



Sorry folks, no luck with posting the pics. Will try again tomorrow.


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Offline GasGuzzler

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2018, 03:29:05 AM »
I load 9X19 long and with a little bit extra powder to make up for it because my old P95 is a deep throat.  I have not tried to put them in the magazine or chamber of my Shield.

Offline K-Texas

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2018, 01:12:46 PM »
I load 9X19 long and with a little bit extra powder to make up for it because my old P95 is a deep throat.  I have not tried to put them in the magazine or chamber of my Shield.

I have had a number of Ruger 9mms over the years. The last P-Series was a P-89 that I had to send to Ruger for repair of the DA Trigger. By then they no longer had the parts in inventory to fix it and offered me a new SR9 at cost, so I bought it. All of the Ruger 9mm's I've handloaded for had long throats where OACL was determined by the magazine. I never tried to exceed SAAMI Max OACL of 1.169", but with the older Remington 124 gr. JHP, I experimented with loads as long as 1.161" and they ran fine. 1.142" is a standard length for me when loading 124 gr. JHPs provided they'll work in the pistol. Some 147s as well.

The Range load I described in my first post is actually below the Max charge in SIERRA's data. When someone is looking for data for a 124 gr. JHP where there is none, as in the case for the smaller bullet companies, I always recommend using the SIERRA data. I consider it as worse case scenario because their 125 gr. JHP has one of the longest shanks in this weight range. Then, they and Lyman loaded it very short @ 1.075". So at 1.122"/28.5mm with the Everglades 124 gr. JHP with 5.7 grs. of Silhouette the load is actually .4 grs below the Max charge listed by SIERRA. The old Remmy 124 gr. JHP never got used much in anyone's data either and that's how the practice of using SIERRA data started because it will work for any 124/125 that has a shorter shank/bearing surface. Typically, velocity will run higher with bullets other than SIERRA's 125 gr. JHP even while lengthening OACL. :icon_wink:
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Offline satx78247

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2018, 03:08:07 PM »
QUESTION: What rate of twist is the barrel of the Remington  Model 7615 Police Carbine, which is marked 5.56NATO.
(I've looked & cannot find the rate.)

yours, satx
"VICTORY OR DEATH"

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Fortress of the Alamo, Bejar
Fby 24, 1836

Offline GasGuzzler

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2018, 03:14:27 PM »
1.135" 115gr plated RNFMJ 4.8gr Bullseye is what tested best accuracy at 21' in my P95.  I have a chrono but have never used it (used the first one and it was broken out of the box. Midway sent a new one and I never assembled it).

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Offline K-Texas

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2018, 06:50:10 PM »
QUESTION: What rate of twist is the barrel of the Remington  Model 7615 Police Carbine, which is marked 5.56NATO.
(I've looked & cannot find the rate.)

yours, satx

Hey Buddy! When it comes to AR twist rate I generally have to rely on manufacturer's spec. I'm pretty sure that Remington supplies those specs in their online catalogue/specs.

As far as any recommendation all I can tell you is what makes sense to me and my needs: 1 in 8"! Considering the caliber, ballistic co-efficients, sectional density and mass, I'm pretty sure that if you're using it for the right application, 80 grains is more than enough. Chris Kyle's interpretation of 5.56mm NATO effectiveness, is why we as a country/military went to a small/light bullet to begin with; its ability to tumble in its soft target at 300 yards. :icon_wink:
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Offline K-Texas

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2018, 07:11:46 PM »
1.135" 115gr plated RNFMJ 4.8gr Bullseye is what tested best accuracy at 21' in my P95.  I have a chrono but have never used it (used the first one and it was broken out of the box. Midway sent a new one and I never assembled it).

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If you get into a serious study of ballistics, you'll use that chrono. Now I talk about knowing Charles Schwartz and all to the point that I'm trying to be a name-dropper. If Chuck saw this it would bring him a good laugh!

Learning to understand the pressure characteristics of a particular powder requires intense study followed by range trials to prove out any hypothesis or opinion. Don't take this as chastisement, put it to your own tests: Red Dot is not quite the best powder to be using for 2 different reasons. It's burn rate is fast enough that the pressure peak occurs before its maximum combustion yield. And, low-density, double-based flake powders tend to flash brightly at night.

So yeah, guys; if you're gonna get into 9 x 19mm defense loads, I promise you, there's plenty to learn! :icon_wink:

I have no commercial alliance with any company or entity within the shooting industry. What got me into writing blog articles was, essentially, Rob Behr motivating me to do it with reinforcements like, "at the worst you'll still get gunwriter status for doing it. I also became a quasi powder tester for them and accumulated a good bit of powder in the process. So when I recommend a Western Powder for a specific application; it ain't because I'm shilling for anyone! My opinions come from my own experience database.
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Offline GasGuzzler

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 05:52:31 AM »
Red Dot is one of the powders I don't have. :-)

Offline satx78247

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 09:40:26 AM »
K-Texas,

I finally found the rate elsewhere. = 1 to 9".

yours, satx
"VICTORY OR DEATH"

William Barret Travis, Lt. Col, comdt.
Fortress of the Alamo, Bejar
Fby 24, 1836

Offline K-Texas

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2018, 11:44:17 AM »
Red Dot is one of the powders I don't have. :-)

My Bad! You said Bullseye, not Red Dot. Bullseye is often a good choice for target loads but it is also a very fast burning powder. Power Pistol is basically a larger flake cut version of Bullseye which slows the burn rate and gives it greater velocity potential. BE86 comes from the same group but has a flash retardant for defense loads and is just slightly faster burning than Power Pistol. :icon_wink:
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Offline K-Texas

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2018, 11:49:49 AM »
K-Texas,

I finally found the rate elsewhere. = 1 to 9".

yours, satx

satx, you probably know that 1 in 9" was the original twist used for 55 gr. NATO loads. As we know, it will stabilize the 62 gr. bullets with the 64/65 gr. bullets being about the heaviest. So if you want to use bullets in that weight range and even a bit lighter, 1 in 9" is the standard. :icon_wink:
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Offline satx78247

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2018, 07:42:30 PM »
K-Texas,

I was  HOPING that 69 grain bullets will work OK, as I've been offered about 1500 Speer match-quality JHP 69 grain bullets for 100 bucks or about 7 cents each, out of an estate sale in Kerr County. = Midway sells those bullets for 27 cents each, btw.
(I'd sooner NOT buy 100.oo worth of UNSUITABLE bullets. = Thus my query about rate of twist.)

yours, satx
"VICTORY OR DEATH"

William Barret Travis, Lt. Col, comdt.
Fortress of the Alamo, Bejar
Fby 24, 1836

Offline K-Texas

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2018, 07:59:03 PM »
K-Texas,

I was  HOPING that 69 grain bullets will work OK, as I've been offered about 1500 Speer match-quality JHP 69 grain bullets for 100 bucks or about 7 cents each, out of an estate sale in Kerr County. = Midway sells those bullets for 27 cents each, btw.
(I'd sooner NOT buy 100.oo worth of UNSUITABLE bullets. = Thus my query about rate of twist.)

yours, satx


Well Buddy, I ain't gonna tell you it won't work when I know I would have to decide for myself. But speaking directly to the Chris Kyle design, the minimum velocity for the SIERRA 77 gr. HPBT Match w/cannelure was 2700 FPS to ensure that it would tumble out to 300 yards. I have water tested the 65 gr. SIERRA SPBT in water jugs and at 50 yards there was very little evidence left behind

You doing picket. duty, I'm sure, for the USAF can appreciate the kind of killing/accuracy that will produce. Even at night or in your own home we're stll talking about the best compromise between control-ability and power.  OOooops, I mean lethality. It's why the 5.56mm NATO is still holding on, not that I have anything against the contenders. :icon_wink:
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 09:10:42 PM by K-Texas »
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Offline K-Texas

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2018, 02:26:26 PM »
I realize that I was kind of lacking concerning with the actual range report. Because the wind was as strong as it was we shot 10 round groups at 7 yards. The loads I reported on in my article for Western were used without any concern of chronographing or water test since that has already been done. They are very accurate loads.

I also continued the search to find the velocity for the 124 gr. Golden Saber where it does not separate. Definitely not the first time I've done that. I don't know all of the reasons why, but I've had to do this several times over the years with a good bit of velocity variance. I don't know if it's QC or them buying lead wire from different vendors. But, in all of my tests, the jacket penetrates to the same depth as the core, so it is still a very viable option. I would not buy the factory rated +P load, however. Remington only rates it at 1180 FPS from a 4" test barrel even though it's rated +P. In the loads where I duplicated factory velocity there has always been separation causing me to push them faster. And with a good defense powder like Silhouette, treated to have very low flash, higher velocity is possible without the loads being above Standard Pressure 33,000 CUP or 35,000 PSI/SAAMI.

One important reason I continue the velocity search with different lots of 124 gr. Golden Saber is because the best way I've found to load them is at the same length Remington uses at 1.145". That may seem long, but the way the bullet's designed with the "Driving Band" (shank), that seats the top of the driving band flush with the case-mouth. All of the bullet exposed above the case-mouth is sub-caliber where its smaller diameter does not contact the leade/throat/rifling in the barrel. It's just a matter of the load fitting in the magazine. And for me, that is an issue with my own handload test gun. The SARGUN 9 is convertible to .45 ACP with just a slide, barrel, magazine change. The .45 ACP mags are steel and probably Mec-Gar, but the 9mm mags are translucent polymer so that you can see the rounds in the mag. Unfortunately, the polymer is thicker and reduces the OACL for the load. For any other pistol I would load them at 1.145", but for the SARGUN 9, I have to shorten them to 1.132" so that they work in the mags.

I lowered my charge of Silhouette by .1 gr. and there was still separation. My next loads will be with another reduction of .1 gr. I've had good luck in the past at around 1220 FPS, so maybe this particular lot of Golden Sabers will hold together at that velocity as well. And while I couldn't chrono the load because of the windy conditions, there wasn't really a need to since there was separation at the velocity they were leaving the muzzle.

Hopefully, I will find a way to post pics in the future. Our range load with the Everglades 124 gr. JHP is very accurate. Match grade, IMO. It also uses Silhouette where I lowered the charge by .1 gr. also, because they separate at range load velocity around 1179 FPS using 5.8 grs. of Silhouette, a CCI500 and an OACL of 1.122"/28.5mm. Please be safe and work these loads up properly. The loads we fired Friday were 5.7 grs. and performed exceptionally in the water test. That bullet, before and after the test, is what I had pics of that I couldn't load in the 1st post. Accuracy was still excellent, although I don't yet know their actual velocity/stats since I couldn't chrono. My suspicion is that they're still leaving the muzzle, or chrono'ing at 12' they still be going 1150 FPS or a tad faster. So, you should still be able to get very good performance at 5.6 grs. of Silhouette as the Max at slightly lower velocity. Next range session I hope to chrono the 5.7 gr. load. But this bullet is NOT particularly heavily constructed. The petals from the copper jacket can look pretty wicked while the core flattened out nicely with the entire bullet holding together. Plenty good for a dual purpose econmy JHP! :icon_wink:
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 06:39:51 PM by K-Texas »
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Offline K-Texas

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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2018, 02:45:32 PM »
K-Texas,

I was  HOPING that 69 grain bullets will work OK, as I've been offered about 1500 Speer match-quality JHP 69 grain bullets for 100 bucks or about 7 cents each, out of an estate sale in Kerr County. = Midway sells those bullets for 27 cents each, btw.
(I'd sooner NOT buy 100.oo worth of UNSUITABLE bullets. = Thus my query about rate of twist.)

yours, satx


Also, there are many excellent ARs out there with the 1 in 8" twist, like the Ruger AR556. That rate will do great with the 69 gr. bullets. If you already have the Remington, I might be tempted to go ahead and try them. It shouldn't take too many rounds for an accuracy comparison to your lighter bullets. Might still be good enough to satisfy depending on the intended use. For that price I would buy them anyway. If they don't work for your rifle as well as you'd like, selling them to others should still be quite profitable. Or even a trade for bullets you know will work in your rifle.  :icon_wink:
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Re: Handload and Range Report
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2018, 04:00:49 PM »
Checking Everglades before placing an order I found out that they're up to like 4 different 124/125 gr. JHPs in 9mm. The one we use is the version 2. :icon_wink:
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