Author Topic: New ammo to try  (Read 2238 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 308nato

  • Military
  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • *****
  • Posts: 2365
    • View Profile
New ammo to try
« on: May 04, 2018, 01:49:01 PM »
In my may issue Rifleman I saw some ammo called NovX that might work out for me as new self defense ammo instead of
hollowpoints.
for info go to www.novxammo.com and also midwayusa sells it .
Has anyone else heard of this ammo or tried some?
Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.
Thomas Jefferson.

Caedite eos.Novitenim Donimus Qui Sunteius.

The new ballet of good over evil is called
The Double Tap Center Mass Boogie.

Offline Alte Schule

  • Military
  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • *****
  • Posts: 2572
    • View Profile
Re: New ammo to try
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2018, 03:21:40 PM »
Is interesting for sure. First read about it around Thanksgiving time last year in a Truth about Guns article. Have been tempted to get a box but at $30 for a 51 count (yes 51) and add $5 for shipping I'll pass for now but sure would like to shoot a few through my HI Power and CZ Scorpion carbine.
Have been trying to get a box of this: https://republicarsenal.com/product.liberty-ammunition-ultra-defense-9mm-50-gr-lead-free-20-box25-case for the last three or four years without any luck. Plan on going to a show in Bell county in a couple of weeks. For some reason, the last couple of times I have attended, I've had decent luck at that venue on various things that have been on my bucket list.
UPDATE: After writing the above I got to thinking about how most "specialty" pistol ammo comes in 20-25 count boxes so the price for a 51 count box isn't really that out of line. I need a MLOK vertical grip for something so I may order a box through Midway when I order the grip.
This gun is liberty; hold for certain that the day when you no more have it, you will be returned to slavery.
Toussaint Louverture

Offline K-Texas

  • Can Pack a Range Bag
  • *
  • Posts: 156
  • BANNED!
    • View Profile
Re: New ammo to try
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2018, 03:55:02 PM »
Is interesting for sure. First read about it around Thanksgiving time last year in a Truth about Guns article. Have been tempted to get a box but at $30 for a 50 count and add $5 for shipping I'll pass for now but sure would like to shoot a few through my HI Power and CZ Scorpion carbine.
Have been trying to get a box of this: https://republicarsenal.com/product.liberty-ammunition-ultra-defense-9mm-50-gr-lead-free-20-box25-case for the last three or four years without any luck. Plan on going to a show in Bell county in a couple of weeks. For some reason, the last couple of times I have attended, I've had decent luck at that venue on various things that have been on my bucket list.

A.S., that's a pretty light bullet, even for monolithic copper. But, monolithic copper (alloyed) bullets are very deadly. Particularly those like the Barnes XPB, but 115 grains is the heaviest weight for 9 x 19mm IIRC. Unfortunately, they're also very expensive. I do believe that Barnes makes a +P load. Because the bullet is all-copper (or the same guilding metal), they have to be longer since lead has greater mass.

I probably wouldn't shoot as many for testing, but I wouldn't hesitate to carry something like the Barnes XPB. Even the component bullets for handloading are quite expensive. But occasionally I do get the urge to get some, and Barnes gives load data for them at their website using a good number of different powders.

As far as carbine loads, I'd have a hard time in not using the Hornady XTP because they handle a good bit higher velocity. For serious penetration on something like a Feral Hog I'd probably load the 147 gr. XTP in 9mm.  :icon_wink:
Our Father, who ART in Heaven . . . 
The LORD is my Shepherd; I shall not want . . .

Anything that can be corrupted by man; will be corrupted!

Offline K-Texas

  • Can Pack a Range Bag
  • *
  • Posts: 156
  • BANNED!
    • View Profile
Re: New ammo to try
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2018, 04:56:04 PM »
In my may issue Rifleman I saw some ammo called NovX that might work out for me as new self defense ammo instead of
hollowpoints.
for info go to www.novxammo.com and also midwayusa sells it .
Has anyone else heard of this ammo or tried some?

Naturally, I'm not the last word on this subject, but let me explain why I would not use what I refer to as "Screwdriver" bullets. There was an old luxury car commercial that once said, "it's not always about how fast you can go, sometimes it's about how fast you stop!" The screwdriver bullets work on an entirely different premise compared to Hollowpoints. A great part of the destructive effect is how fast a JHP can shed its energy into the target.

I recommend all readers here to go to http://blog.westernpowders.com/ and read the articles recently added by Charles Schwartz comparing .45 ACP and 9mm. Part II just went up today, and my own article will follow later, and kind of following Charles' lead after reading the first article and talking about some things by email.

In my opinion, Charles Schwartz is probably the best authority we have today regarding wound ballistics. In his book, Quantitative Ammunition Selection his data is explained and reinforced by pure science, not conjecture based on the number of cadavers someone has examined or reports they've read, which in some cases comes with astronomical (ridiculous) exponential extremes.

Charles and I became acquainted through some articles on handloading I've written in the past.What got me really interested in his work (and me not being much concerned about FBI opinions since the DPS was about 12 years ahead of them and everything they do). Charles is a retired DOJ LE officer that was involved in ammo testing and results throughout his career. He knows his stuff, period!

Along the way, he began testing in water to find a way to make direct comparisons to a JHPs performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. In his book, he even explains the apparatus he uses that can be made without a great deal of expense. Naturally, being a Texan, I had my own system for testing but rarely did I list the results because I simply shoot 1 gallon jugs filled with water, LOL! But, the more I studied Chuck's methodology, the more I became convinced that this guy's really got it going on. And I use to concoct all kinds of stuff in my unscientific testing like wet newsprint before and after the water jugs. Some guys I know were even convinced that you could shred newsprint, stuff it in a jug and ad water!

So here's the deal and I feel this could be very beneficial to the OP after reading his posts. Charles developed a mathematical model that allows you to shoot JHPs in water, chronographing the impact velocity and then weighing and measuring diameter of the recovered JHP. Sound like Voo-Doo? I promise you that it isn't. He's done thousands of such comparisons in developing the math and physics.

As far as direct comparison to as many commercial defense loads as can be found, Charles, a year or so ago told me that his database for comparisons has grown to over 800 data points where the level of accuracy is above 95%. I've seen a lot of numbers and percentages in my time and I can tell you that shooting JHPs into water and comparing the results for the same JHP in ordnance gel while being accurate over 95% of the time is something I personally have a great deal of faith in. And the differences we're talking about for water testing the JHP and calculating the outcome for the same JHP fired into ballistic gel and finding the minute differences between the two in non-consequential decimal numbers, or less than a millimeter in many case is almost mind boggling in its accuracy of 95+%.

Charles uses a series of water filled baggies in his test and that's all explained in his book. So me being Mr. Jughead, I started making my own comparisons simply using the jugs, and Charles is aware of my shortcut method. When I got serious about trying to make correlations, I set the base-line for penetration with a Winchester 230 gr. JHP load. Something I recommend simply because it works for me is to line the jugs up touching with the handles pointed to the rear with all of them pointing in the same direction. What I have found as maxiumum desired penetration, for myself, is any JHP that does not penetrate beyond the 4th jug. If you're testing a new bullet, add one or two extra jugs.

Some economically oriented JHP manufacturers will tell you that their bullet is suitable for defense use. That, I promise you is not always the case. And plated Hollowpoints? Forgetaboutit, thay may go through 5 or 6 jugs without expanding at all: all but one. I have tested the Berry's 147 gr. Hybrid Hollowpoint and may have found the ideal load for sub-compact pistols like the S&W Shield. The only problem I found with this Berry's bullet is that it will not reach the rated maximum velocity of 1075 FPS without the bullet's petals breaking away. I have been researching higher than typical velocity 147 gr. JHP loads for some time now, and my long overdue article for Western will give the results of 4 different heavyweights.

The point of all this being; try any of this with the screwdriver bullets! Charles and I have had discussions about them and his opinion is very close to my own. In other words, he ain't gonna recommend them.

And, even though I still use the jugs, I still run the data through his formula. That was made a bit easier for me with the software program he developed for the calculations. This is concluded with the percentages each bullet fired will have in terms of incapacitation within 30 seconds. I grew up in handgun shooting hearing that I should always fire at least 2 rounds in a lethal confrontation. This formula will go almost into infinity before it predicts 100% results, if it ever does! I've never ventured that far because it just isn't necessary. A 4th shot with a good performing JHP is about as close to 100% as you'll ever need. What I look at mostly is the differences with the 3rd shot. So, while I use to practice and keep my mindset on the double-tap, it has now become the Triple-Tap while trying to keep Massod Ayoob's sound advice as part of my mindset. We know there have been shootings in the US where te criminal was wearing body armor, It has even resulted in the deaths of engaging CHL holders who were on the scene before LE. Massod's advice is that if a hostile doesn't go down after multiple shots, you're either missing them, or, he may be wearing some sort of body armor. At that point, your best course of action is a shot to the pelvic area to get the criminal off his feet.

I'm ex-navy, so I always liked to hear a SEal mention their doctrine of 2 in the chest and 1 in the head. The problem is that none of us likely expend nearly as many rounds in practice as a SEal or any other special operations trooper. Using the best ammo that you can, and one reason I make my own, is because I'm not going to blindly follow anyone which in many cases is nothing but HYPERBOLE. Put your loads to the test before you rely on them with your life at stake. And Now, Charles Schwartz has given us all an easy means of doing that. :icon_wink:
Our Father, who ART in Heaven . . . 
The LORD is my Shepherd; I shall not want . . .

Anything that can be corrupted by man; will be corrupted!

Offline 308nato

  • Military
  • Concealed Carry Pro
  • *****
  • Posts: 2365
    • View Profile
Re: New ammo to try
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2018, 06:04:34 PM »
K-Texas thanks for your input as I will do a little more research on this.
Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.
Thomas Jefferson.

Caedite eos.Novitenim Donimus Qui Sunteius.

The new ballet of good over evil is called
The Double Tap Center Mass Boogie.

Offline K-Texas

  • Can Pack a Range Bag
  • *
  • Posts: 156
  • BANNED!
    • View Profile
Re: New ammo to try
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2018, 07:40:37 PM »
My Pleasure!  :icon_wink:

Sorry about the length of the last reply!

Also, Alte Schule brought a very good element into the discussion with monolithic, or all copper alloy bullets. My thought on that though is to use the heaviest all-copper bullet for caliber. They're very long which limits the weight that can be used, but the higher mass of the bullet results in greater momentum. Like Muzzle energy, momentum can be manipulated with mass and velocity. Either or, or both. :icon_wink:
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 10:32:00 PM by K-Texas »
Our Father, who ART in Heaven . . . 
The LORD is my Shepherd; I shall not want . . .

Anything that can be corrupted by man; will be corrupted!

Offline Shield45

  • Gun Enthusiast
  • ***
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
New ammo to try
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2018, 07:35:46 AM »
G
I
M
M
I
C
K


Be better off to  use your money a larger amount on proven ammo

Ill take 240gr .45 acp JHP thank you.
Or 185gr .40 SW JHP as an alternate
Or .155gr .357 magnum JHP

Thay ALL are proven to be effective.
On people and living creatures.

All these gimick rounds are well gimicks designed to separate you from your money.

 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline K-Texas

  • Can Pack a Range Bag
  • *
  • Posts: 156
  • BANNED!
    • View Profile
Re: New ammo to try
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2018, 07:49:25 PM »
G
I
M
M
I
C
K


Be better off to  use your money a larger amount on proven ammo

Ill take 240gr .45 acp JHP thank you.
Or 185gr .40 SW JHP as an alternate
Or .155gr .357 magnum JHP

Thay ALL are proven to be effective.
On people and living creatures.

All these gimick rounds are well gimicks designed to separate you from your money.

 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Could you reinforce your opinion with actual science? Monolithic copper bullets are no gimmick. But no bullet defeats physical science.

Let me ask who you're buying 240 gr. JHP defense loads from? The much more common weight would be 185, 200 and 230 grs. Most 230 gr. JHPs ae loaded to around 850 FPS. That would yield a momentum of 0.8680 Lb-seconds which is why they have an advantage in penetration.

But, if you care to investigate real ballistic science, rather than some dentist who considers himself a ballistic expert, penetration and blood loss are NOT the only wounding mechanisms.

Just to be fair and honest, if your 9mm pistol will allow for loads as long as they'd have to be with monolithic copper at 124 grs. at the highest velocity I'm aware of from any ammo co. is around 1300 FPS. The momentum would be 0.7158 Lb-seconds. So long as you're getting at least 0.6500 Lb-seconds of momentum or higher, if a bullet holds together well enough, the momentum is high enough to ensure good penetration.

On the other hand, a .451" 230 gr. JHP @ 850 FPS produces a muzzle energy of 369 Ft/lbs of KE. A 124 gr. 9mm JHP at 1300 FPS produces 465 Ft/lbs of KE at the muzzle.

This is exactly why in my time here that I've tried to direct y'all into looking at Charles Schwartz's Quantitative Ammunition Selection. No one physical property outweighs another. All factors must be considered, which he explains precisely in the 2 articles that precede my own. In his first, he explains the true history of .45 ACP and 124 gr. NATO ball ammo in actual battlefield statistics. Forget about those who make uneducated assumptions, QAS is pure science.

It ain't about one shot-one kill, because such assumptions with handgun rounds can get you K-I-L-L-E-D. A round's effectiveness is based on the number of rounds fired into a target within a span of 30 seconds. And this while Charles Schwartz has very real professional experience in Federal LE, as well as the science of Physics. What he ain't is some dumbass that will tell you that the most effective stopping round in .44 Magnum is a 300 gr. XTP!!!

The trait that I look at very closely after P[I/H] (probability of incapacitation by each subsequent hit) is the factor called Delta E15. And I apologize for spelling out Delta. Charles uses the appropriate symbol. What it measures is the displacement of energy (KE) within the first 1 - 15 centimeters of the wound channel.

And as I said b4, except for a couple of bone-heads posting their inferiority complexes, I would have been glad to furnish those statistics to anyone asking provided that they know impact velocity and the diameter and mass of the recovered bullet. You see, in over 800 actual comparisons of shooting the same round into the same gel used by the FBX and into water, Charles has developed a very precise calculation for the water test to determine the EXACT penetration as the FBR's gel test. How accurate? 95%+ with over 800 data points. Has anyone else ever developed ANYTHING so conclusive. Granted, if your mathematical aptitude doesn't extend beyond the 6th grade, you may want to rely on the guy I refer to as the, "ballistic dentist." No LE background while the requirement for his DDS didn't require much study in physics as far as degrees go.

And, for those who have ever fired a 300 gr. .429" XTP into a soft target like a whitetail deer or human being, you might undersatnd exactly how some of this absurd BS matriculates thru the inetrnet grapevine. :icon_wink:
Our Father, who ART in Heaven . . . 
The LORD is my Shepherd; I shall not want . . .

Anything that can be corrupted by man; will be corrupted!