Author Topic: ..I'm sad for our Military..  (Read 1377 times)

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Offline Tango

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..I'm sad for our Military..
« on: March 13, 2018, 05:53:00 AM »
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sad that since WWII our Military has chosen to "not win" in any of our conflicts

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/13/jim-mattis-afghanistan-end-game-458325
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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2018, 08:32:54 AM »
I don’t see it that way. 
No outside country has successfully ‘conquered ‘ Afghanistan.
Feudal / tribal system with no central government, incredibly poor logistics abilities and terrain that has defeated dozens of challengers in the past 1,000 years. 
If a (quasi) central government can be setup that will at least sit on the terrorist, with an eye looking forward to developing infrastructure and the $ trillion + in rare minerals, I say go for it.  It’s unlikely the US can militarily win a protracted effort as the Russians tried.
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Offline Tango

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2018, 08:58:58 AM »
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ah but the "conquering" of Afghanistan wasn't the point of my post - 'twas the fact that the US Military doesn't have the leadership to allow it to win whatever undertakings in which they get involved (nothing, zero, zilch subsequent to the end of WWII)

there have been "battle victories" such as action against saddam's reign of terror but even with that the US failed to follow-up and finish the job and look what a lovely paradise vacation spot Iraq is today

and what anniversary year is this for the US involvement in Afghanistan ?  16 or 17 years - there isn't anything there that justifies our involvement

Korea - Viet Nam - we all know how those turned "police actions" out
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Offline busykngt

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2018, 09:39:27 AM »
Tango,
Interesting choice of words you’ve chosen to start off this thread.  You’re sad for our military.

WHY is it you’re sad?  The military is subordinate to and responds to the demands/directions of the civilian {elected} leadership of our Constitutional Republic. 

Had our military been “unleashed” in all its full might, there is no war we would not have “won”.  The question becomes, would we want to live in such a resulting world? 

It comes across to me, at the heart of your comment is a questioning of the concept if civilian imposed restraint [on the military] is the correct and proper governmental structure to follow. 

While it may not sit well with the more radical bent members of this forum, I would suggest, as compared to available alternatives, we’ve probably got the best workable system (even with its warts and flaws).
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Offline dred

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2018, 09:43:36 AM »
@Tango ...

I think the we can/could win.  Since WWII, I don't think we are willing to pay the price of "winning".

I don't think you will disagree that our military has the capacity to remove the existing population and replace it with one of our preference - IMO, that is the formula for a win in the Afghan theatre.

And, I think we both agree that we have no business putting our boys on the line when we are not willing to win.  I love Mattis 'cause I believe he gets this simple truth.

In my admittedly jaded opinion, all of our post WWII military engagements have been about moving wealth into the hands of the businesses we pay to rebuild after we tear stuff down.  I passed at the chance to join the wealthy by chasing construction oriented contracts in the Middle East.  But we made a whole new generation of millionaires and I did very seriously consider tossing my name in that hat.

When I left the industry, I was heavily courted by a guy quickly multiplying his millions.  I competed with him for a large Denver Airport contract.  And, I met him again during the feeding frenzy which was the post Katrina rebuild.  He offered me an obscene salary to work with him, but I recognized that I'd have to give up my home, my family and the few morals I have to succeed in that game.  That is the true story of how I became a Grocer - mistakenly thought it would be good for my family.

Offline satx78247

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2018, 09:45:54 AM »
Tango,

Pardon me for simply stating that you are both 100% factually incorrect & WRONG-HEADED.

It is definitely  NOT the US Armed Forces fault that we've not won any wars but rather the ENTIRE & COMPLETE FAULT of the CIVILIAN GOVERMENT & its "leaders".

The wars in Korea & VietNam could have been won outright IF the DC "leadership" & the "mainstream press" had not constantly stood in the way and/or covertly (and often openly)  consorted with our enemies.
(I question whether anyone could ever win in Afghanistan, given the unruly/unholy mess that that country has been for nearly 5 centuries or more. = To quote Winston Churchill, "- - - - - it is not a country but rather a collection of warring tribes, with many different interests". = Imvho, we should NOT have ever gotten involved in that mess.)

yours, satx
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Offline Tango

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2018, 10:12:06 AM »
Tango,

Pardon me for simply stating that you are both 100% factually incorrect & WRONG-HEADED.

It is definitely  NOT the US Armed Forces fault that we've not won any wars but rather the ENTIRE & COMPLETE FAULT of the CIVILIAN GOVERMENT & its "leaders".

perhaps you'll go back and read the 1st paragraph of my 2nd post in this thread - or better yet, I'll re-post :

"ah but the "conquering" of Afghanistan wasn't the point of my post - 'twas the fact that the US Military doesn't have the leadership to allow it to win whatever undertakings in which they get involved (nothing, zero, zilch subsequent to the end of WWII)"

care to withdraw your "100% factually incorrect & WRONG-HEADED" comment ?

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2018, 01:24:42 PM »
@Tango ...

I think the we can/could win.  Since WWII, I don't think we are willing to pay the price of "winning".


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Offline Tango

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2018, 01:42:44 PM »
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well of course the US Military could win - any conflict in which it was sent to fight - the US has the best trained and (now getting) the most experience of any of the major militaries.....but could win only IF the commanders, from the POTUS on down thru Company level C.O.s (who serve 6 months, or less, so as to get "combat experience" in their Service Record) would lift the stupid restrictions that only we (our Military) must abide by

and "that" is why I'm sad for our Military
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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2018, 03:15:59 PM »
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well of course the US Military could win - any conflict in which it was sent to fight - the US has the best trained and (now getting) the most experience of any of the major militaries.....but could win only IF the commanders, from the POTUS on down thru Company level C.O.s (who serve 6 months, or less, so as to get "combat experience" in their Service Record) would lift the stupid restrictions that only we (our Military) must abide by

and "that" is why I'm sad for our Military

Well said Tango. 

Not to mention we really don't have the respect of (nor are feared by) other potential adversaries and many 3rd rate coun.  A few decades ago, I heard the moniker "Nobody F's with the Russians" more than once, and it was because those who did usually ended up poorly.  As we now try to reverse 8 years of pussification (is that a correct verb?), we may slowly regain some respect.  We'll see.
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Offline satx78247

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2018, 03:58:52 PM »
Tango,

I'll happily withdraw my comment WHEN/IF that you make it 100% clear that the "leadership to allow it to win" that you refer to is NOT the leaders of the US Armed Forces but instead is the limp-wristed, 9-button panty-waist, spineless  CIVILIAN 'leadership" in DC that never backed us GIs up, as they SHOULD have.

GEN Macarthur was CORRECT. - Truman was WRONG.

The commanding generals of USARVN were CORRECT. -  LBJ & RMN were WRONG.

yours, satx
"VICTORY OR DEATH"

William Barret Travis, Lt. Col, comdt.
Fortress of the Alamo, Bejar
Fby 24, 1836

Offline Tango

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2018, 04:06:21 PM »
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I've stated what I meant by my post - it's up to you to issue an apology for what you posted
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Offline satx78247

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2018, 05:24:27 PM »
Tango,

Inasmuch as your posts sounds like an attack on our US military & our proud GIs, you shouldn't hold your breath until I apologize to you, as you will first turn BLUE.

Btw, did you serve in a uniform of the US military??

yours, satx
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William Barret Travis, Lt. Col, comdt.
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Fby 24, 1836

Offline Tango

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2018, 05:42:12 PM »
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in as much as you continue to quibble rather than offering an apology for what I consider to be an obnoxious name-calling directed towards me I would appreciate that, in the future, you not respond to any thread that I post - I'm at an end with you

and yes, I served in the Army for 9 years - two combat tours of duty in vietnam with many hours of flight time over north vietnam  -  it seems to me that your time in the Service taught you - not much as far as being a gentleman is concerned - good day sir
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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2018, 06:06:17 PM »
Thanks for your service Tango.  I'm impressed with anyone that 'earned' a Martin-Baker tie, thats a pretty serious deal.
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Offline busykngt

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..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2018, 04:42:37 PM »
...Imvho, we should NOT have ever gotten involved in that mess.

satx78247,  please clarify.  Would you have not gone after Bin Laden (who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks)?   As I recall, the Taliban were in charge of *most* of Afghanistan and were offering him [Osama] “safe haven”.  We (Pres. Bush) made a demand of the Taliban, to turn over Bin Laden to us.  And as is traditional Islamic custom, they refused to do so (for someone under their protection).  How could we NOT have gotten involved in that mess known as Afghanistan?
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Offline satx78247

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2018, 05:07:59 PM »
busykngt,

Had "wee willie klintoon" been a DECENT President/person, we would have had OBL in our prison at Gitmo LONG before 9-11-01 & would never have had to go into the mess in Afghanistan. = That "piece of filth" was offered to us on a silver platter & Klintoon turned getting him into USMS custody down flat.

Also, I'm told that there is NO actual evidence that OBL ever actually lived in Afghanistan, though he was certainly there at times. = He lived (after 9-11)  & was captured in Pakistan.

yours, satx
"VICTORY OR DEATH"

William Barret Travis, Lt. Col, comdt.
Fortress of the Alamo, Bejar
Fby 24, 1836

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2018, 05:57:32 PM »
Also, I'm told that there is NO actual evidence that OBL ever actually lived in Afghanistan, though he was certainly there at times. = He lived (after 9-11)  & was captured in Pakistan.

That's total BS. 
He went to Afghanistan in 1979 and returned 10 years later after the Soviets left. Look up "Operation Cyclone", UBL was the recipient of serious resources from the US government in fighting the Soviets while in Afghanistan.  Afterwards he was PO'd that the Saudi's wouldn't accept his fighter's help and at the high level of corruption in the Saudi government, and started pointing out picadillos of the Royal family.  Pissing them off, but having enough clout via his father to avoid rough interrogation, he was placed under house arrest, (when the Americans who didn't know what they were being offered turned the Saudi offer down) then to his self imposed exiled to Sudan in 1992. He traveled through the Arab 3rd world after exile.  Some thought he was involved in the 1995 Riyadh and 1996 Dharan bombings but likely was not.  With time and activities, his ability to travel (6'5" stands way out in the Middle East) became more limited, particularly after 9-11.

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Offline satx78247

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2018, 07:00:40 PM »
TXAZ,

In other words, based only upon your own post, he evidently  NEVER actually lived in Afghanistan but spent his time traveling from one place to another & finally found a relatively safe place to reside for some years  (until our SEALS got him) in Pakistan.
(Fyi, I got my info from a friend on the Ranger School faculty at USAIS. = A FEW of us OF are still working, rather than retired.)

Jerry said that, "We were never able to find Bin Laden's home in Afghanistan because he only visited there for brief periods & then re-crossed the border." & "We got many reports of where he had been, after he had left & gone elsewhere."

yours, satx
"VICTORY OR DEATH"

William Barret Travis, Lt. Col, comdt.
Fortress of the Alamo, Bejar
Fby 24, 1836

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Re: ..I'm sad for our Military..
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2018, 07:26:33 PM »
You may want to re-read the second line.
If you go to a country for 10 years, then return, is that living in the country?

Yea, it is. 
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